Shared Map

[Magnus]

Looks very cool.

Aww I like symetry in a CTF. Although I have noticed over the years too much symetry makes defending too easy.
As long as the two halvs (blue side and red side) are mirrored then the rest is cool.

Can't wait to give it a test play.

[Silicone_Milk]

Well if the entire map was symmetrical then I could get away with making the base symmetrical as well.

Anyways, I came down with something nasty overnight and I'm very uninspired right now. I wont have a playable version by today like I thought I would.

I MIGHT have something by saturday (busy wednesday through friday)

[wattro]

No worries, Silicone. I've got something for everyone in the mean time. Lots of minor changes, nothing too significant:

Download here: Version 4

- shrunk the map by about 1024 units from flag to flag
- copied the midfield from magnus' map (i think version 7c or 7d)
- changed the lava in midfield to murky green water
- minor geo changes throughout
- reworked most of the entities and spawns
- bots are still pretty stupid and not great at taking the side routes and ignoring useful items

So... what really sucks and what should be changed?

[lvlshot]http://www.robotrenegade.com/q3wptmctf1/source/wattro/q3ctfptmwattro_v4.jpg[/lvlshot]

On a side note, I drew up an new floor plan/layout based on things I have learned during this process. The image doesn't really say a lot, but any feedback on it is valued. I'll try to whip a very basic alpha before the end of the week.

[Silicone_Milk]

Interesting stuff Wattro. I'll download this and take a look.

Also, I set up an irc channel on irc.quakenet.org called #q3wptm so log in and we can throw some ideas around instantaneously instead of playing the waiting game on the forums

And, I was thinking maybe we should set up a temporary svn repository to keep track of what changes are being made to which versions of the map(s). Just a thought

[wattro]

Both ideas are ace. I haven't idled in IRC in years - not since I dabbled in speed mapping briefly. I was thinking about setting up something like that just the other day.

[a13n]

SVN?
Isn't it a bit overkill?

[Magnus]

Looks very attractive wattro! I like this a lot.

I have to go to work right now, but I will DL it when I get home and have a run throught it.

I haven't used IRC in years either, but it sounds like fun and a help towards our efficency. I will drop in sometime after work as well.

Have a good day guys.

[dichtfux]

on SVN:

Most likely it is - especially since you're not working on the same version of the map.

Even if you were, reading the diff-file of .maps most likely isn't going to tell you much about what was changed.

Unless someone already has a ready-to-use SVN somewhere, it's most likely not worth it. On the other hand it will ensure that no version is lost and it's easy to setup (recently switched from darcs to subversion myself).

[a13n]

As for IRC, it's a pain in the ass in terms of time zone.
If you insit on irc, please hire me as a dummy specialist in a dummy company in the U.S.A. and issue an eternal visa.
After I immigrated into U.S.A. where no taiwanese or its similarities exist, you can freely fire me and I'll make my living as taxi driver or pizza driverier or whatever belonging to drinking class, and I'll go on irc.
It's the least condition I agree with the use of irc.

[o'dium]

This map is only telling me one thing...

Wow, I couldn't go back to brush/aptch work, I need models

Good game on getting it this far guys, I keep checking in. Looks great.

[dichtfux]

You mean you'd use only models for the whole map? Isn't it a pain in the ass to do that? All those collision issues, building a hull for it and stuff?

Does it pay off for stuff like normal corridors/buildings (read: not caves or stuff like that)?

[wattro]

@o'dium: i understand, i'd use models if i was more comfortable and efficient with them. right now i'd put myself in absolute newb category. i use maya at work for building simple cubes, but that's about it. i'm hoping this next go-around, i can get some of the world artists to teach me a few things about it and take a few intermediate courses at work, but right now it would be a struggle for me.

that being said, maybe it's not a far off possibility to switch to models at some point during the course of this project.

@irc/a13n: that's the beauty, just come in and idle, regardless of timezone. even though our timezones don't always mesh up, some of us have weird sleeping habits. which reminds me, i have to go back to work in a few days. and there is a damn moth in my apartment. BLAST!!

@svn: dichtfux makes some good points - though, i wonder if it may have use as an asset tracking system or when we eventually move to only one map (unless *gasp* we somehow end up with a map pack? not that i am pushing for that)? at any rate, i think it would be an interesting experiment were we to move in that direction (ie: shared mapping through svn). on a somewhat related note, it would be cool if there was a comment system inside of radiant.

@all: thanks for the positive comments

[o'dium]

You mean you'd use only models for the whole map? Isn't it a pain in the ass to do that? All those collision issues, building a hull for it and stuff?

Does it pay off for stuff like normal corridors/buildings (read: not caves or stuff like that)?

After using Doom 3 rad you wont go back to Quake 3. Models in Doom 3 levels are clipped straight away, you dont need to go back in and clip it all off. You can even assign a seperate, invisible surface thats lower poly, and use that as the clip. You only really need a brush work hull, basic in nature, for vis.

The main reason behind moels being better is that you can vertex blend thm, and believe me that looks awesome for levels like this because you can blend from one texture into another, which of course is great for caves and the like.

Then again, its hard to get caves looking good in doom tech thanks to no bounce lighting But its not impossible

[Silicone_Milk]

this is quake 3 tech though

[o'dium]

this is quake 3 tech though

I'm not 100% sure, i think so, but quake 3 supports vertex blending on models. In fact I'm pretty sure it does?

The only thing stopping you making the same thing is clipping, which again I'm sure can be worked around.

[Magnus]

@wattro:
No I don't think the base is too big.
There don't seem to be any corridors that are too long.
The midfeild is just right in size. I like the green water better.
Distance between the bases seems OK to me though play seemed a bit slow. Also it is about 2000 units longer than my last version and I was still hearing size reduction IIRC, but it could have been the version before last that I was getting size reduction. Now that I think about it I seem to remember that everyone was pleased with the size on my last version...finally.

Anyway I am getting a "shader not found" texture where your water should be as well as where a few clips of some kind and a few floor areas in Radiant.
It looks as though your textures for the water and some clips and floor textures are missing from the .pk3, but it seems strange because it looks fine ingame.

Awesome job on the water in the midfeild though and I like the item placement on the ramps in the midfeild.

@o'dium
Thanks for the compliment man.
I really do want to see this all the way through and hopefully an end result of a quality popular CTF map.

[obsidian]

this is quake 3 tech though

I'm not 100% sure, i think so, but quake 3 supports vertex blending on models. In fact I'm pretty sure it does?

The only thing stopping you making the same thing is clipping, which again I'm sure can be worked around.

Yes and no. You can't use vertex paint like in Doom3, so you have to add either alphaMod dotproduct to the shader or manually place alphaMod volume brushes. I've been working all day trying to do the vertex paint method only to have Kat confirm that it's not supported by Q3Map2. I'm experimenting with something else which seems to work but not sure how robust it will be.

Clipping is the bitch. Q3Map2 autoclipping is a bit of a hack and shouldn't be relied upon too heavily. I think modeling of objects that are for visual purposes only and unreachable is the best idea. Brushes used for the floors and structures that actually affects gameplay.

[a13n]

@wattro
Speaking of moth, isn't it curious that when it is a larva, it has no poison and many people@southern China even eat it?
They say it contains nutrition as much as peanuts.
But as it grows up, it comes to be equipped with poisonous powder.

@obsidian
-ne switch for more precise autoclipping?

[wattro]

Anyway I am getting a "shader not found" texture where your water should be as well as where a few clips of some kind and a few floor areas in Radiant.
It looks as though your textures for the water and some clips and floor textures are missing from the .pk3, but it seems strange because it looks fine ingame.

That's probably because you need to add q3ctfptmwattro your shaderlist.txt file. The game sees the shaders correctly because they are included, but you have to tell radiant to use the shader file.

I used my own custom shaders for the fullclip, botclip (included a cushion, so bots don't take falling damage), the water (added a nodrop since the water is deep, but this might be bad), fog, the sky, and the direction indicators. I'm not sure if bots actually take into account falling damage, but I had hoped it would increase their comfort level with dropping down from heights.

Distance between the bases seems OK to me though play seemed a bit slow. Also it is about 2000 units longer than my last version and I was still hearing size reduction IIRC, but it could have been the version before last that I was getting size reduction. Now that I think about it I seem to remember that everyone was pleased with the size on my last version...finally.

Yeah I am not able to easily chop off any more distance in my map without drastic changes. Flag to flag 5760 units across. The midfield is 1344 units, which means 1472 units from flag room to midfield using a direct route (about 640 units from the flag to exit of the flag room). I realize that direct units don't translate into actual map speed. One thing I have noticed is that because there are no long corridors, it's hard to build up speed. There are a few places where you can get in 3 or 4 bunnyhops..

I still haven't played your latest version, so maybe now is a good time to do that.

[wattro]

@wattro
Speaking of moth, isn't it curious that when it is a larva, it has no poison and many people@southern China even eat it?
They say it contains nutrition as much as peanuts.
But as it grows up, it comes to be equipped with poisonous powder.

that moth currently resides on the inside of my window blinds being baked by the sun. i'm not sure if he'll survive, or meet fate like most of the critters that try to live in my apartment. i haven't decided yet. i'll probably let him live and see if he can find his way to freedom.

[Silicone_Milk]

Yeah, moth larva... and live scorpions, starfish, various aquatic life (slugs, sea cucumbers, frogs, etc)

Wasnt adventerous enough to try most of the stuff in the wet markets though when I was in Shanghai.

[a13n]

I'm not sure if bots actually take into account falling damage, but I had hoped it would increase their comfort level with dropping down from heights.

That sounds curious if it really affects the route decision.

i'll probably let him live and see if he can find his way to freedom.

She(He?) might lay in your ears while you are asleep.

@Sillicone_Milk
That would be a wise decision.
If you ate it, your face must have turned into a reptile look like southern savage Chinese such as TW and HK people.

[Silicone_Milk]

lol?

Eat what the locals eat is usually my motto when traveling. Thats how I found the greatest breakfast ever.

5 am. Followed the locals in the ghetto on a bike to see where everybody goes so early in the morning. Turns out breakfast shops open up in the middle of nowhere and a U.S. nickle gets you a huge plate of food made right there in front of you. I landed two breakfast burritos. Sure as hell beat the hotel breakfast of powdered eggs, burnt toast, and champagne

[wattro]

Hi All,

I have a brand spanking new map here.

It's extremely alpha, but completely playable. The only part of the map that bares any resemblance to any that previously existed is the midfield (and that's pretty loose).

Notes:
- no hints, but that's not a big deal because the level is small
- no hanging flags to help with area recognition (but there are direction markers)
- in the room with YA and 2 pools, the bridge is too low and you hit your head if you jump
- fog in the middle room is broken for some reason... possibly because the level has a giant sky and ground brush
- bots don't use east path at all, don't use JPs by Regen or GL, have some troubles with 45 deg geo -- needs bot clipping
- map file is included in the pk3 (as always) - please feel free to chop at it

The obligatory screenshot:
[lvlshot]http://www.robotrenegade.com/q3wptmctf1/source/wattro/q3ctfptm/q3ctfptm.jpg[/lvlshot]

Have a quick play through and send any comments this way.

[a13n]

Is this supposed to be another idea?
Or did you spoil your previous version?

Below is my error report.
1. water texture is missing
2. some water volumes at midfield are empty(simply nonsolid).