Micheal Moore tears Wolfie a new one

Post by **[xeno]Julios** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:59 pm

Nightshade wrote:
Are you referring to the second clip? I haven't watched it yet. My point is that Gupta and CNN were just plain wrong, and if I were Moore I'd be highly pissed off about that and probably more focused on it, especially given the fact that they did the same thing when Fahrenheit 9/11 came out.

yea - the larry king exchange between him and gupta

Post by **[xeno]Julios** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:01 pm

HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Why must Moore address the most inane accusations over and over and over?

for one, if he addressed them directly, he'd show them up for how inane they actually are, rather than giving the impression that he's skirting the question (which reflects poorly upon him for people who aren't in the choir).

Post by **R00k** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:05 pm

Did you read my replies Jules?

Post by **Dave** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:06 pm

menkent wrote:actually the mosque seige is in pakistan, iirc. though all those brown people look the same.

aw nuts... but yeah, it could be anywhere.. I lose track of my moque stormings.

Post by **[xeno]Julios** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 pm

R00k wrote:Did you read my replies Jules?

yep - and i agree that moore's being unfairly attacked by the piece, but he could do a far more effective job at nullifying the offense by staring the inane criticisms in the face and systematically and calmly showing them up.

Post by **Hannibal** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 pm

While I agree with you in principle Jules, I think by that point Moore was just so pissed off that he didn't bother...I mean, Gupta vaguely sidestepped almost every charge Moore made. Two way street thingy.

Post by **[xeno]Julios** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:13 pm

the heart of moore combined with the composure of Sam Harris would be ownage ++

Post by **Ryoki** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:42 pm

R00k wrote:Have you ever looked at how much money advertisers pay for spots on channels like theirs?

CNN has entire segments of their shows sponsored by certain companies (Moore himself alluded to one segment that was sponsored by pharmaceutical companies). These companies pay millions of dollars for this kind of advertising. Just for one instance.

At that rate, a thousand ads in one year gets you straight into the billions, and they certainly have more than a thousand ads per year.

Some ads are worth more than others of course, but a pharmaceutical company will pay massive amounts of money to get an ad running right after a story about the latest healthcare plague, that their drug can treat.

Interesting... CNN Europe does not do that. At least, i don't think so... i don't watch CNN often, but i can't recall sponsored shows...

Here it has the occasional airline commercial and a 'watch this program' bit, and then it's straight back to the news. Thought it would be the same in the US.

Post by **R00k** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:51 pm

Really? You hardly have any commercials on CNN?

That's interesting.

Post by **Ryoki** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:02 pm

Strange no?

I knew CNN Europe was different from the US version, but thought it was limited to content.

Post by **Hannibal** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:09 pm

Ryoki wrote:Strange no?

Not really considering where Consumer Man lives.

edit: esp. in terms of Big Pharma's interests.

Post by **GONNAFISTYA** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:11 pm

Moore pretty much shut everybody up when he mentioned making new priorities instead of spending $100 billion a year on wars (which is a conservative estimate...don't kid yourself).

While Gupta did his right wing best to say "we'll all go broke without private insurance", he wasn't convincing. I actually laughed out loud when he began his "socialized medicine will be the death of us all" routine. What a good little puppet.

Let's not forget the fact that the conversation immediately got onto how CNN had fucked up...even after knowing the facts for a month. I'm sure alot of viewers picked that up.

The revolution is coming.

Post by **GONNAFISTYA** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:29 pm

He also smacked him down when he echoed what I've been saying for years: it doesn't matter if an essential service goes into debt, the point is everybody gets the service.

You wouldn't cut off the electricity of a small rural town (and tear down the infastructure of miles of high tension wires) because it wasn't profitable. You'd be shot within a week. Healthcare is no different...and that's the whole fucking message of his movie.

Post by **Dave** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:53 pm

I was talking to one of our faculty today and she said it's a pain in the ass to get money for drugs out of the insurance companies even when they do authorize treatment

Post by **[xeno]Julios** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:53 pm

GONNAFISTYA wrote:Moore pretty much shut everybody up when he mentioned making new priorities instead of spending $100 billion a year on wars (which is a conservative estimate...don't kid yourself).

yes - now this was the heart of the issue, and it never got properly explored.

Post by **GONNAFISTYA** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:16 am

Dave wrote:I was talking to one of our faculty today and she said it's a pain in the ass to get money for drugs out of the insurance companies even when they do authorize treatment

There are still huge problems in Canada with the price of drugs: they're fucking expensive.

No doubt they're probably alot cheaper than the US (which is why you cunts raided our supply) but the problem is that the Canadian pill system is alot like the US. It isn't always subsidized and people sometimes have to pay full price (sometimes in the hundreds of dollars per month) and only get back a certain percentage of it back at tax return time (and alot of paper work bullshit).

I was fucking amazed when I went to a pharmacy in Copenhagen...I was expecting to pay like $40 for penicilin and I paid like $4.

Like Mr.Moore says: there is no perfect system, but grab the best of each one and start from there.

Post by **GONNAFISTYA** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:18 am

[xeno]Julios wrote:
GONNAFISTYA wrote:Moore pretty much shut everybody up when he mentioned making new priorities instead of spending $100 billion a year on wars (which is a conservative estimate...don't kid yourself).
yes - now this was the heart of the issue, and it never got properly explored.

It will one day. People just have to talk about it.

Perhaps if he's smart, the next time Moore's on CNN he can hijack it again and take the discussion in that direction and - as needed - be relentless.

Post by **l0g1c** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:18 am

R00k wrote:
Transient wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote: But Gupta was calling Moore on what Moore said in the interview.

And based on the quote you gave me, the smart thing for Moore to do would have been to say:

"I never said it was free in the film"

He never addressed the question directly and clearly.
I thought he DID say it was free in the film?
NO, HE SPECIFICALLY SAID IT WAS NOT FREE, SEE ABOVE POSTS.

I'm just going from memory here, but I seem to remember about 10 minutes or more devoted to Moore running around in some foreign hospital asking people how much they paid for giving birth in the hospital, how much are they paying for their meds, etc. It was a montage of people going "nothing" "free" "we didn't pay" "you don't pay here." Oh, and then Moore says offhand somewhere in another part of the movie how its paid for by taxes. So, it may not have come from Moore's mouth, but this is exactly why I dislike Moore's films.

Post by **Dave** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:37 am

I have the same problem with his films, but that didn't bother me because the point he was trying to make is that no one is refused care and you don't have to pay with your life to get it. Sure we don't pay taxes out of our asses, but many Americans do get fucked in them by the insurance companies.

Post by **R00k** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:18 am

Yep. There's a big difference between paying taxes for social services, and paying $2000 for a single emergency room visit.

Moore makes it clear in more than one place in the film that this is not a free service. But he also compares it to paying taxes for firefighters and police -- nobody seems to have a problem paying taxes for (i.e. "socializing") those life-saving services. Why should we have a problem paying taxes to insure that we have non-elective healthcare services covered as well?

It's a very strong point.

Post by **scared?** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:23 am

unless ur a moron...

Post by **R00k** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:24 am

Also: you have to have more than 10 minute attention span to realize that he isn't saying universal healthcare is free.

I'm not directing that toward anyone here, I'm just saying that it's the kind of thing a lot of people seize on.

Really, the only way you can use that as an argument against him is by ignoring the rest of the film. Not only does he talk about the tax rates of individual countries, but the bit with Tony Benn just lays it right out there.

Post by **Dave** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:47 am

scared? wrote:unless ur a moron...

I'm not sure where you stand, but I can't help but believe you're a little bit biased because you're under the impression that the health fraud industry is what keeps you out of work and doing the dishes, which is a little out of character for you considering you never hesitate to find evil and conspiracy elsewhere.

Post by **scared?** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:31 pm

we need universal healthcare now...unless my wife gets a pay cut...

Post by **MKJ** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:32 pm

... scared ?