Shared Map

[Magnus]

I was picturing a series of tunnels rather than all in one giant room.

I like this idea as well. I can see tunnels and rooms carved out of the surrounding rock with lava on the floor and in most areas there is grateing hung by long bolts or cables attached to the tunnel or room celings to prevent you from walking on the lava.

Yea tunnel caves and rooms could be very nice as well. :icon14:

[zZCastleZz]

The above pictures:

Far too ambitious and risky.

Pull back the design to make the level a series of rooms and connecting hallways. Try to create the illusion of a giant open chasm and avoid at all costs actually building one.

sorry for the brief post but I have a map of my own that needs tending!

[Kaz]

hey finish ptm3

dayve made an absolutely kickass huge cavern atrium thing

[Magnus]

The above pictures:

Far too ambitious and risky.

Pull back the design to make the level a series of rooms and connecting hallways. Try to create the illusion of a giant open chasm and avoid at all costs actually building one.

sorry for the brief post but I have a map of my own that needs tending!

Yea I think that was the vision ix-ir had for the cave thing.

I was picturing a series of tunnels rather than all in one giant room.

I can see tunnels and rooms carved out of the surrounding rock

Just one big cavern or cave room would require too much junk here and there to block snipers from having a constant shot at you and that would in turn mess up the flow of a good CTF.

The shots above shots were more of just an area I created real quick to give a visual representation of what I was seeing to make sure I was seeing the project the same as the other team members.

[wattro]

how about 3 cavern atriums? 1 for each base and 1 for the middle? this gives the best of both worlds. where the cavern atriums meet will give you interesting opportunities to use both the caves and floating/separated castle pieces.

[maz0r]

that loosely brick design reminds me alot of the doom3 hell maps. I really loved the atmosphere in those.

[o'dium]

Holy tiny scaled lava texture batman!

[Amphetamine]

Holy tiny scaled lava texture batman!

I was thinking Lava, rinse, repeat.

Interested to see if the team goes for sockwall or ase for the cave detail.

[ix-ir]

Sockwall. \o/

I think a good CTF map needs 5 distinct areas or sections that work in a particular way with clear divisions between zones.

2 Base
2 Pre-mid
1 Mid

The base needs to provide a combination of lines of sight and cover to make the contest between attacker and defender interesting. A good concept is to think of an attacker having to take risks to get to progressively closer pieces of cover, multiple attackers most likely, trying to work together to distract the defence until one makes a jump for the flag. There's also the hell for leather run in route but it's best to keep this under control, a more protected flag as in q3wcp1 is much better than the exposed swoopable flag of q3wcp9.

What should differentiate CTF from TDM and defines the core of CTF are the skills of movement and misdirection, players need to be able to cap by their wits, using well timed double backs to get opponents out of position.

Each of the zones should have fairly fast routes through the zone then consider a speed break at the transition between zones such as a tall flight of stairs, a bounce pad or a very sharp corner. Transitions keep people's over all speed under control (you don't want attackers swooping into the flag room at 1000 ups as may be possible in CPM) and also create an exciting accordian effect - a chaser gets relatively closer to you at the transition point and gets the chance to hurt you.

The mid zone needs to be fairly simple (but please no rail gun here, this makes for massive cess) and allow 1 player with information to intercept a runner or 2 without information. Information being hi/lo or left/right. This is the crunch point that interceptors can get to and know they have a reasonable chance at stopping a runner. It's then for the enemy team to break the mid choke.

The pre-base zone needs to be rather like a CS map in the way it functions, the exits from this zone should be fairly limited and tightly controlled but within this zone there's a supply of some items to build up and enough geometry to have a chance of losing people with double backs etc.

The last point about CTF map design is never put spawns beyond Mid for a team.

[Magnus]

OK, here is a layout I came up with. Just a suggestion. Perhaps it will get a few more ideas flowing.

Of course the flag rooms would need some kind of brush work to build a proper base. It would be dumb to just leave it open.

Please excuse the spelling errors in the immage. I am in a bit of a hurry here.



Also yea that lava tex needed to be scaled, but it was just a quick throw together set of brushes for examples sake.

[Silicone_Milk]

GTK 1.5 irritates me to no end.

I usually make heavy use of the vertex manip. tool and it acts as an edge tool whenever I select one of the vertices. :icon33:

[a13n]

@Magnus
The colorized side view really helps. :icon14: (could grab 90% of the concept w/o texts)

[maz0r]

Those long narrow corridors between base and mid are actually a no-go in ctf these days. No chance to escape with the flag, cause those defenders have a too long los to rail the fc. Also it's just boring to strafe jump through those.

On the nearly all standard competition ctf maps (w3, p1, p5, p9, p15, c2) the bases and mids are connected in other ways, like intersecting great hallways or even atriums (e.g. p9 or p1). Corridors - if necessary - should be held short. Except if they are part of the gameplay like the long line of sight in the upper part of p15 (but realize that the rail is missing on that map). Also you should really consider making more intersections between the parts of the map. At current state a fc has NO chance to steal away alone, because he is actually trapped in those side corridors (I assume that the middle ones offer some possibilites to change the route). It's just the essence of ctf to fool the defense where you are (like on p9 where fcs sometimes hide for 2 minutes in the basement just to confuse the enemy defense and waiting for escort).

[Magnus]

stuff

Good point.

I also just noticed that in that layout I only left three exit points out of the flag room and they are fairly close to each other making defending really easy (and boring) and chances of getting the flag next to nothing.

Also I like what ix-ir mentioned about CTF maps having 5 areas as well. All, but two of the CTF maps I have crated follow the 5 area formula. It just "feels" right.

I like the idea of the halls/tunnels passing over and under each other like the green purplre and yellow area, but perhaps that should be reserved for a space or tech themed map. Perhaps making a portion of those halls glass framed in metal so you have the element of seeing a glimps of your enemy run by on one of the levels below or above you and having to turn back or change paths to catch up to them, but only knowing the general direction they went so you have to do more skilled anticipation.

Ok back to the drawing board.

Hey boilingoil. You had any more good layout ideas yet? That map breaking up thing seems to be a well liked idea.

Oh, before I start from scratch do any of the portions of that layout I made seem like a keeper or something to build off of?

Thanks for all the feedback. :icon17:

[boilingoil]

OH! I'm gone for a day and the wheels are burning rubber!

I like the actual bases. I like the chains and lava idea too.



I still dont have my drawing tablet, i hope that doesn't just look like a pile of turd in the corner.

I drew up this after reading about the tunnels and seeing this layout, maybe we could have just choked up cavern sections with stalagtites/stalagmites abstructing view, and large rocks and bolders making a path (high paths and low paths) instead of just making tunnels through it.

I i googled cave formations and came up with these pictures, just to give an idea:

http://community.iexplore.com/photos/jo ... ions-1.jpg
http://www.scsc.k12.ar.us/2002ArkNatHis ... t_ramp.gif
http://www.dospalmas.info/images/doshm2a.jpg
http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/00HOQG-31335484.jpg
http://www.earlham.edu/~brizeja/Graphics/map1024.jpg

We could have the bases suspended by chains over lava, and the paths be running through a large cave with obstructions and whatnot creating the multiple paths. (lol i said it twice huh?)

@magnus, I could do some brushwork of my paths idea if you like.

[Magnus]

i hope that doesn't just look like a pile of turd in the corner.

It looks fine. I can see what you have done with the 3D portion. That was funny though.

@magnus, I could do some brushwork of my paths idea if you like.

That is totally up to you. We are still deciding on a layout and theme for that matter at this point. So any additional ideas will only provide more possibilities.

I came up with a very simmilar layout to the one I already made, but I took into consideration the feedback we have got so far. So my new layout addresses those issues.

I will post it tomorrow. I am off for the night.

Happy 4th. to all who are celebrating as well.

[Silicone_Milk]

Since you brought it up Magnus....

Ideas For Themes:

1.) 1930s Deco style architecture. I love this style and think it would be neat to see in a quake 3 map.
Here's a picture to give a sense of the atmosphere I'm thinking of
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/28475468/

2.) This picture says it all - http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20021269/


3.) Twisted. Distorted. Odd. View this picture for an idea of what I'm talking about:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/35758377/

[Kaz]

call me a cynic but this is pretty much the ptm thread from 3 years ago

not to be a jerk i'm just pointing out a similarity

[boilingoil]

30's deco style sounds cool, ctf between two speakeasys. I think of kingpin or even gears of war if a tech twist was added to it.

[Magnus]

OK, Here is the latest version.

Plenty of paths for doubleing back.
Direct view of what path the flag carrier ran and long areas where a sniper could take out the flag carrier is blocked by pillars of rock or stalagtites/stalagmites and curved tunnels/paths.
No areas so long or large that they get boring.
Any of the dark brown areas could be cave/tunnel wall or a collection of stalagtites/stalagmites or rubble.

If any of the map areas are unclear or hard to understand the paths or general structure ask about it and I will explain further.



Now for some feedback on this layout.

call me a cynic but this is pretty much the ptm thread from 3 years ago

not to be a jerk i'm just pointing out a similarity :icon25:

No problem. Did that PTM turn out to be a success or failure? Maybe we can lean more about what to do or more accurately what not to do.

[Magnus]

Since you brought it up Magnus....

Ideas For Themes:

1.) 1930s Deco style architecture. I love this style and think it would be neat to see in a quake 3 map.
Here's a picture to give a sense of the atmosphere I'm thinking of
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/28475468/

2.) This picture says it all - http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20021269/


3.) Twisted. Distorted. Odd. View this picture for an idea of what I'm talking about:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/35758377/

Actually that sounds like a sweet DM map idea. Nice man!

30's deco style sounds cool, ctf between two speakeasys.

Actually now that you mention that I think could turn out to be a cool TDM or maybe a CTF, but I think a ctf with that theme would require a mod. Instead of a actuall flag the "flag" to capture could be a case of money or a valued high priced call girl.
Capture points could also be based of time your team or "gang" was in posession of the "flag" with points racking up the longer you have the "flag"at your base and the points stop building for your team and the other as long a the "flag" is in the running from one base to the other transition.
Also it should be if the "flag" carrier is fraged and drops the "flag" and a member from the "flag"'s origonal base touches it it is not returned to it's origonal base, but the player that touches it next picks it up and is now the carrier.
There should be 2 "flags" in play or at their origonal base, both at one base or in the running transition phase all of the time.

Anyway we are getting into a pass the mod here...lol

Back to the pass the map. I would love to be involved in a pass the mod project like this and get in there with you guys and play, but I have a fair bit to learn before that is possible.
(Perhaps some tutoring/mentoring for a old noob with potential to create some good stuff might help. Misantropia? Silicone_Milk? Obsidian? Foo? Ydnar? pjw? Kat? AEon? Hint Hint ...lol)

[obsidian]

First of all, get someone to actually build a layout alpha. Forget the prettiness or the style or the textures or the models. Just the layout (as in just a few big brushes placed). Then play the hell out of it and pass along gameplay feedback. Revise, repeat.

I can already see from your illustrations that the map is starting to grow overwhelmingly large and you are probably lacking on some vertical gameplay.

Actually build the alpha and try to squeeze things down nice and tight while adding some more vertical flow. Multiple floors, jump pads, stairs, etc.

Once you get the layout nailed down, then you can worry about appearance.

[boilingoil]

G-G-G-G-Gangbusters!!!!!
Shhhh. shh. You've said too much already! That's two game modes you just made up. Escort, and Ransack (you should have to take the money to a safehouse, not back to your base). You could even go as far as to have to occupy a certain area of a town/city/hood whatever for a certain amount of time. Think Annex in GoW.

I really like this map idea, but I think the best way to do it justice would be to get it into Blender or something and really make this cavern thing look organic. Across the middle at least, the far left and far right could look drilled/mined/blasted. I have my drawing tablet now, so I could mock up some concept art of what I mean. I have to drive to texas so gimme a day. (I've done some more work on oildm1 but now it's on the back burner untill this thing is at least alpha.) EDIT: Boxy alpha map first. I see what you mean now Obsidian, small steps kiddo. (if this was polycount who'd guess this one right? )

Check out that section of Castle's Q4 map. I'm a n00b myself, but i'd be more than willing to learn Blender for the sake of making a kick ass CTF map. I downloaded it, now i just need to set it up. That's the hardest part right?

I would love to be involved in a pass the mod project like this and get in there with you guys and play, but I have a fair bit to learn before that is possible.
(Perhaps some tutoring/mentoring for a old noob with potential to create some good stuff might help. Misantropia? Silicone_Milk? Obsidian? Foo? Ydnar? pjw? Kat? AEon? Hint Hint ...lol)

I concur :icon32:

[obsidian]

That's the hardest part right?

No, the hardest part is the layout. Until you get that started, nothing else will actually start. Until you guys have that, this thing will die before it even gets off the ground.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I've watched far too many PTM's fall apart for this very reason. Someone will be working on textures, someone else on models, someone else on a very pretty flight of stairs, but none of it actually goes together or fits into the layout which was hacked together like an afterthought to accommodate everything else.

Edit: Oops... you added the yellow bits before I posted.

[ix-ir]

Good job Magnus, that's a huge improvement. Could you explain a little more what's going on in the 2 level mid room? It looks as if the floor is lava.

Sorry to be a bit of an armchair quarterback on this, I hope you don't mind my suggestions.

Looking at what we've got now - mid looks very good if those are rock pillars, you've got cover and an interesting setup for a Quad in the middle of that. Players will need fast mechanisms to go between the two height levels in mid (i.e. not lifts). Without a rocket jump the bounce pad over lava (?) tunnel area makes the middle a diagonal for players which helps increase their exposure although the reverse route, over the lava to mid is potentially very short - just around the corner in mid into the corridor.

The base area looks very bland - flat and open around the flag and symmetrical. I'd suggest we add more platforms over the lava with cover, moving from platform to platform would be risky and exciting and make use of this otherwise dead space.

The tunnels will need some small room spaces to contain items. The standard for CTF maps seems to be 4 armours which is very low for 8 players, we should aim for 2 RA and 4 YA with 2 Mega healths.