so this is how depressing this country has gotten.

[Fender]

Yeah, the management's fucked so let's blame the professionals

I'm not blaming the "professionals."
I AM blaming management and the system. Flat rate pay scales encourage people of below average skill to go for a job and people of above average skill to take a different job. Plain economic truth.

[redfella]

I am omni-present.

[Dr_Watson]

The public school system is broken. Plain and simple. I'd like to say that poor people would benefit from privitatization because of charity, but I'm not so sure. Regardless, something needs to be done. Let's start by getting rid of teacher unions, or at least implement pay for performance instead of standard pay for every year of service.

teachers don't get paid enough as it is.
i find it pretty sad that you can work at a call center doing tech support (with nothing more than a highschool diploma) and make more money than someone who has a masters + certifications who's responsible for educating our kids.

i think the underlying problem with this whole capitalist cesspool we live in is that the countries priorities as a whole have gotten totally fucked out of ballance.

gays don't threaten "the family" but greedy government fucking children out of healthcare and education certainly does.

god this place has gotten so fucking depressing.

[Fender]

teachers don't get paid enough as it is.

Actually, removing the standard pay scales and implementing pay for performance would IMPROVE teacher's pay. That will attract better teachers.

[StormShadow]

the problem is this country doesnt value education nearly as much as we should. I mean hell, look who we elected president.. a 'c' student who cant pronounce simple words or form a proper sentence.

Education simply isnt valued, and its reflected in the policies of those we elect. We care more about gay rights, gun control, and abortion than we do on who is teaching our children.

[StormShadow]

Actually, removing the standard pay scales and implementing pay for performance would IMPROVE teacher's pay. That will attract better teachers.

That or scare people away from the profession...

[R00k]

The public school system is broken. Plain and simple. I'd like to say that poor people would benefit from privitatization because of charity, but I'm not so sure. Regardless, something needs to be done. Let's start by getting rid of teacher unions, or at least implement pay for performance instead of standard pay for every year of service.

teachers don't get paid enough as it is.
i find it pretty sad that you can work at a call center doing tech support (with nothing more than a highschool diploma) and make more money than someone who has a masters + certifications who's responsible for educating our kids.

i think the underlying problem with this whole capitalist cesspool we live in is that the countries priorities as a whole have gotten totally fucked out of ballance.

gays don't threaten "the family" but greedy government fucking children out of healthcare and education certainly does.

god this place has gotten so fucking depressing.

The idea that people have their own incentives for success and betterment is a good one in general though.

The problem is that, at one time, the government was used to curb excesses by companies that hurt the individual. The companies, only existing for the purpose of profit by definition, have found ways around that, by directly influencing government policy themselves.

Did you know that in the beginning, the US had very strong regulations against companies becoming incorporated (corporations)? And that corporate charters were recognized as inherently dangerous, and were only issued for specified time periods? And that you could only get a charter for very specific reasons, such as providing a service that would benefit the public? And that charters could be revoked for nearly any kind of infraction against the public?

Growing corporations and huge mergers are killing the world economy. We now have international corporations who basically comprise their own economies, which are larger than the economies of many of the countries in the world. And a lot of them are, for the most part, not answerable to any government in the world. Unless they happen to harm some people in a developed country that actually has laws protecting its individuals, and even then they manage to buy themselves out of any real repercussions half the time.

[R00k]

Sorry to derail the thread, but here is a little history I found on corporations in America:
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_a ... ns_us.html

[werldhed]

Another big problem with companies is that legally they are treated the same as private citizens. That means companies are free to demand legal action against anything that might be unconstitutional to a citizen. It gives them the "I have a right to make a profit by whatever means" argument.

[Hannibal]

teachers don't get paid enough as it is.

Actually, removing the standard pay scales and implementing pay for performance would IMPROVE teacher's pay. That will attract better teachers.

Business-model window dressing...it will simply drive the talent into well funded districts.

[R00k]

Savor that extra $300 you got this year. As a matter of fact, frame it and hang it on your wall. That way 5 years from now you can remember how happy you were to get it, when we're in a huge recession and it's worth enough to buy you a couple of meals.

Since when have Democrats worried/thought about the future?

I'm not sure if you're calling me a democrat here, or just trying to make a point. But, hey, if you want to compare republican/democrat policies that were written to prepare for the future, go ahead and make a list and put it in a new thread. I'll have that debate anytime.

[werldhed]

teachers don't get paid enough as it is.

Actually, removing the standard pay scales and implementing pay for performance would IMPROVE teacher's pay. That will attract better teachers.

Business-model window dressing...it will simply drive the talent into well funded districts.

That's true. Talented teachers are not going to be interested in schools that regularly preform poorly because they'll know they will be paid less.

[R00k]

Another big problem with companies is that legally they are treated the same as private citizens. That means companies are free to demand legal action against anything that might be unconstitutional to a citizen. It gives them the "I have a right to make a profit by whatever means" argument.

What is amazing about that is the fact that there is no law or precedent stating such a right, but they are assumed the benefit of the doubt by judges basing their verdicts on a series of flimsy decisions made by others in other cases.
There is no real legal case for corporate personhood.

[R00k]

The public school system is broken. Plain and simple. I'd like to say that poor people would benefit from privitatization because of charity, but I'm not so sure. Regardless, something needs to be done. Let's start by getting rid of teacher unions, or at least implement pay for performance instead of standard pay for every year of service.

I agree that it's broken, and I agree that pay scales should be based on performance and skills, just like it is in every other profession (theoretically at least).
But I also think that, with the system in its current state, teachers' unions are irreplaceable. Without them, things would probably be worse than they already are, since government ultimately decides how much our teachers get paid.

At the same time, I don't believe there should be a federal solution to any of the problems. I also believe that if the federal government would stop meddling with the states' check books (listen up conservatives!), and the states were allowed to handle more of their own money, they would decide to actually put more funds into the school system -- some would do much better than others, but that's what our system is all about.

I also think it'd be a good idea to set a percentage scale for teachers and administrators in school districts. Pay rates for principals, superintendents, secretaries, office workers, etc. would be capped, so they could only make a certain percentage more than the average pay of teachers in their districts.
There would be an unofficial Parents Union which could get any teacher fired by a large majority vote, and a minor majority vote of the other teachers. That would also prevent school administrators from hiking up pay raises for bad teachers in order to up their own pay.

[Dr_Watson]

radical idea.... if somone kills bush and cheny... this guy becomes president... and he seems like a pretty ok dude.

[R00k]

You really think it's radical?

I'd be interested to hear what tnf had to say about it, out of curiosity. All plans sound good until you put them on the field, and he's in the middle of it himself, so could probably point out the flaws better than me.

[Dr_Watson]

i wonder if france or germany would offer a guy political assylum.

[R00k]

You have to be running from something to get political asylum. No reason you couldn't just move over there.

[4g3nt_Smith]

Running from a FBI, Police, and every slack-jawed yokel for killing their Commander-in-Chief/modern-day Saint?

[Dr_Watson]

Running from a FBI, Police, and every slack-jawed yokel for killing their Commander-in-Chief/modern-day Saint?

thats what i was getting at.

[R00k]

lol, I must be tired to have missed that. :icon19:

[RiffRaff]

...Maybe some states are doing better than others, but none of them are doing great...

Points taken but actually my state is doing very well, if we can continue to keep the dregs of society out. No income taxes, good roads and public infrastructures. Great schools, for the most part. Crappy on the Reservations but that's the BIA for ya. Even budget surplus year after year.

[Dr_Watson]

...Maybe some states are doing better than others, but none of them are doing great...

Points taken but actually my state is doing very well, if we can continue to keep the dregs of society out. No income taxes, good roads and public infrastructures. Great schools, for the most part. Crappy on the Reservations but that's the BIA for ya. Even budget surplus year after year.

i smell tourism.

[Maiden]

teachers don't get paid enough as it is.
i find it pretty sad that you can work at a call center doing tech support (with nothing more than a highschool diploma) and make more money than someone who has a masters + certifications who's responsible for educating our kids.

Now, I am with you on the fact that a good handful of them deserver a hell of a lot more money for sure, but a lot of them are doing pretty good.
The national average for teachers is $46,000. Now if you please, tell me more about this call center job that will pay me more than that, and give me about 75-80 days off a year, I might want to check it out.

[Dr_Watson]

i'd like to know where you got that number, because my gf's mother has been an elementary school teacher for years and doesn't make anywhere near that.
i think your figures are skewed by including college professors or private schools; or you're pulling them out of your ass.
oh, and btw... one of my good friends does DSL support and makes just shy of $40,000
and when i did cable modem support I was making $30,000