id community support debate

[Eraser]

I remember when Epic was releasing stuff for free, id said they wouldnt go that route and we got Team Arena instead...

Big, big fable.

Yes, Epic released free stuff, but those were a number of community maps, models and mutators thrown together in a single pack. AFAIK the maps weren't even streamlined, edited to optimize performance or to improve gameplay.

id Software, however, released two official mappacks and a custom team for Team Arena, for free. The team was made by id Software themselves and while the mappacks were community maps, id Software worked together with the authors of those maps to improve the maps.

So we got professional quality maps and models from id Software for free while we got amateur quality maps and models from Epic, which could've been gathered togeter by a few visits to planetunreal as well.

[Oeloe]

Epic had to compensate for horrible gameplay.

[Foo]

Personal opinion completely. I normally won't tolerate Quake vs UT discussion because idiots always take it down from arguing on facts to personal, completely unobjective, opinion.

[o'dium]

I quite liked UT2k3, but liked UT2k4 a lot more. It was a realy good game.

[Foo]

Yes, Epic released free stuff, but those were a number of community maps, models and mutators thrown together in a single pack. AFAIK the maps weren't even streamlined, edited to optimize performance or to improve gameplay.

Good god man, stop spouting fanboy bullshit. Without exception, all of the Epic-released levels, community or not, were very high quality.

id Software, however, released two official mappacks and a custom team for Team Arena, for free. The team was made by id Software themselves and while the mappacks were community maps, id Software worked together with the authors of those maps to improve the maps.

So we got professional quality maps and models from id Software for free while we got amateur quality maps and models from Epic, which could've been gathered togeter by a few visits to planetunreal as well.

Bearing in mind that Q3 was released 10 days after UT hit the shelves, and Doom 3 came out after the last UT2004 addon I list here... here's a comparison of what's been released for UT and Quake in the same time period:

Quake 3 + Team Arena
* Pro-Version Map Pack - 5? Maps
* Team Arena Pack #1 - 4 Maps
* Team Arena Pack #2 - 4 Maps


Total: 13 Maps

Unreal Tournament (1999)
* The Epic Pack - 11 Maps
* The Digital Extremes Pack - 2 Maps
* The Inoxx Pack - 6 Maps
* The Christmas 2000 Pack - 12 Maps

UT2003
* Epic Bonus Pack - 10 Maps
* Digital Extremes Bonus Pack - 6 Maps

UT2004
* Win XP Levels - 2 maps

Total: 49 Maps

I didn't bother looking at UT's community map packs, nor did I bother counting all of the non-map addons shipped with those UT bonus packs. So I've biased this towards Quake as much as reasonable.

Even if you factor in the few items I missed from the quake and UT sections, you don't have a leg to stand on when trying to favourably compare id's free releases with UTs... they're completely crushed.

[Foo]

Woah. I totally created a time paradox there

[jester!]

Yeah that post jumped down like 3 slots...

[Eraser]

Personal opinion completely. I normally won't tolerate Quake vs UT discussion because idiots always take it down from arguing on facts to personal, completely unobjective, opinion.

Just pointing out the fact that id Software did release free stuff.
The shots I took at the quality of the Epic free stuff might not have been entirely fair, especially not because in the end, it's all free content.

However, it's just weird to see people claim that TA should've been free. If you look at the amount of content and the quality of Team Arena, then everything Epic has ever released for free doesn't add up to what Team Arena is. id Software had it's full right to ask money for Team Arena. Maybe the price was arguably high, but I certainly don't agree that it should've been a free add-on. Team Arena, IMO, was worth every penny I payed for it.

It's just a shame that this general idea of TA having to be a free add-on spread like a virus and stopped people from buying/playing it, effectively killing it, just because some people are a bit tight arsed about a few dollars. I'm pretty sure that if Epic didn't recycle community-made maps the amount of flak TA would've gotten for not being free would've been a lot less.

[Foo]

Just pointing out the fact that id Software did release free stuff.
The shots I took at the quality of the Epic free stuff might not have been entirely fair, especially not because in the end, it's all free content.

It's just a shame that this general idea of TA having to be a free add-on spread like a virus and stopped people from buying/playing it, effectively killing it, just because some people are a bit tight arsed about a few dollars.

However, it's just weird to see people claim that TA should've been free. If you look at the amount of content and the quality of Team Arena, then everything Epic has ever released for free doesn't add up to what Team Arena is. id Software had it's full right to ask money for Team Arena. Maybe the price was arguably high, but I certainly don't agree that it should've been a free add-on. Team Arena, IMO, was worth every penny I payed for it.

The major difference is quantity. As I showed, in the TIME it took id to release Q3 then Team Arena, and on to D3, Epic had moved on with 3 games, and like 10 or so free content addons. Both companies are still coming out with the 'pay for this... theeeen pay for this' model of selling games, entirely reasonable, but seeing such an inbalance in support for the community between each company left the quake guys pissed. The backlash over Team Arena was a statement - we'll buy your stuff but you have to support your existing games with free content first of all - and that we as a community made that statement is very impressive to me. Sadly, that message still hasn't been heeded, and it goes back to the point I've made before about id being too small a team to be effective in todays gaming universe.

I'm pretty sure that if Epic didn't recycle community-made maps the amount of flak TA would've gotten for not being free would've been a lot less.

You've gone back to this point even after I've refuted it. The packs I've listed aren't community packs - they're professionally designed levels variously from Epic and other hired teams. But even if we run with your point here.. what are you saying? I think the idea of id or epic taking the very best of community work and packaging them up into an official addon is an absolutely fantastic idea, because it would increase the attention given to the work. I hope to see that some day.

Like I said, I think you're mixing up what Epic released with the UT2003/4 community bonus packs, which were created AND RELEASED by a team within the community itself. This in itself is an amazing thing.... that because of the precedent Epic had set with releasing Bonus Packs, and because of the quality of these community packs... the community adopted them, they appeared on servers, they were extensively played. In fact, the very thing you're erroneously using as an argument against Epic's community involvement is the single most shining example of how their community support has payed off for players and mappers.

PS I've *completely* crossed my own boundaries on this UT vs Quake discussion, shall we split this to id legends?

[dzjepp]

I think adding id's previous games to the mix would suit this discussion well. If you count the unofficial work like the expansions for q1 there would be a lot more free stuff. There was also a cd full of doom maps way back, I don't remember if it was actually sactioned by id though.

Oh well. I only count the previous work because at the phase when id released q3/ta they where probably 'burned out' on the whole notion of releasing a new game every year. id didn't want to go the milking route that epic took with unreal tournament 2024.

[I cant spell u]

I think id software has been about game technology rather than game play and game content, (im not saying that the games sucked though.)

[Hannibal]

I'm with Foo on this one.

[Eraser]

Well, I guess Epic raised the bar and has reached lonely heights when it comes to free content. id Software is just one of hundreds of companies that haven't followed them all the way up there.

The amount of community support and interaction you see coming from id Software is still a world of difference compared to most other game developers.

[Oeloe]

Well, I guess Epic raised the bar and has reached lonely heights when it comes to free content.

And still they make a q3dm6 conversion for UT2k4. (Dunno how popular it is though, but i saw it in a ut fragging movie.)

The amount of community support and interaction you see coming from id Software is still a world of difference compared to most other game developers.

True, true.

[_borsdy]

Well, I guess Epic raised the bar and has reached lonely heights when it comes to free content.

And still they make a q3dm6 conversion for UT2k4.

Epic never made that, nor standardised it. It was a popular remake that was integrated in most leagues.

iirc, Epic never standardised any third party maps, they just put a flag on the first community map pack for UT2003 and that was it. They rest of the offical bonus content was theirs. I never played UT99.

[Oeloe]

Epic never made that, nor standardised it.

With "they" i meant the UT community, not Epic.

[_borsdy]

Considering you quoted a specific comment about Epic, I naturally assumed that.

[jester!]

http://esreality.com/?a=post&id=957633

Cough.

[_borsdy]

When they finally do this, suddenly Epic's background of providing oodles of free content for their games is diminished right?

[jester!]

?

I am in favour of any and all free content just to get that out there...

[_borsdy]

Each post I make in this thread is making me look like an overanalyzing dickhead.