How can the US have a city in anarchy after 5 days?

Post by **duffman91** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:10 am

Foo wrote:

On the offchance you can get over yourself and put a few of your opinions up for review:
1. Britain becoming submerged isn't something which is likely to happen. We're talking about a city below sea level and protected by manmade structures... on a common hurricane strip. This was a predicted event
2. If the Uk was entirely underwater, there would be no or few parts of it capable of delivering releif to the rest of it. However only a fraction of the US is underwater right now.

1)New Orleans being hit by a Category 5 hurricane was thought unlikelly to happen. In fact, the levees built were theorized to be able to handle Cat 5 hurricane winds and water fall.

2)Don't forget that major roads to and from New Orleans (and other cities) are completelly submerged. They are having trouble mass transporting the survivors out of the city. Alot of people are covered with 20 feet of water in all directions. The people in the stadium arena are being told that they can't leave untill help arrives.

Stupid thread.

Now add into the mix a bunch of prisoners running free and a lack of food other than chips and soda available to eat. It becomes obvious, that a restless hungry peple become difficult to deal with. It doesn't strike me at all that law enforcement is not effective and that people are dying and getting raped.

Natural disasters are just that. They break shit. Human behavior under stress is clearly viewed worldwide and even locally. You can't forget the LA riots.

Finally, nobody is at fault. Inadequate preventions were made for a situation with a extreme low chance of occurrence.

I close by giving you a few more examples of when and how a city can become anarchy:

1) Las Vegas getting a power outtage with no working backup. The amount of money theft would be staggering
2) Las Vegas or the west suffering from volcanic or severe tectonic movement. Las vegas is divided by a great fault line. Yet, we keep lowering the water level every year. (Las Vegas is one of the most tectonically active cities)
3) Prisoners in any city getting released for whatever reason

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:21 am

duffman91 wrote:1)New Orleans being hit by a Category 5 hurricane was thought unlikelly to happen. In fact, the levees built were theorized to be able to handle Cat 5 hurricane winds and water fall.

Check your facts before spouting any old nonsense to justify things.

The levies were not expected to withstand a category 5 storm, this much was said in public by mayor Nagin well in advance of the hurricane making landfall. It was part of the basis for evacuation.

In fact, the levies were only built to withstand category 3 hurricane winds. (One Source here, but bear in mind this was also widely known and circulated before the hurricane hit: http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/0830 ... 18845.html)

The rest of your post states obvious things which I mostly agree with, but don't refute my points.

Post by **duffman91** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:24 am

Foo wrote:
duffman91 wrote:1)New Orleans being hit by a Category 5 hurricane was thought unlikelly to happen. In fact, the levees built were theorized to be able to handle Cat 5 hurricane winds and water fall.
Check your facts before spouting any old nonsense to justify things.

The levies were not expected to withstand a category 5 storm, this much was said in public by mayor Nagin well in advance of the hurricane making landfall. It was part of the basis for evacuation.

In fact, the levies were only built to withstand category 3 hurricane winds. (One Source here, but bear in mind this was also widely known and circulated before the hurricane hit: http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/0830 ... 18845.html)

The rest of your post states obvious things which I mostly agree with, but don't refute my points.

The cat 5 fact was mentioned on the news several times. I believe by an engineer working on the levees.

Ofcourse they refute your points, one of my points is that your thread is stupid. You're making the situation out to be the fault of poor planning and projection. Yet you seem to forget the premises by which the situation started on.

Ill refresh it for you:

A natural disaster entrapping thousands of people in cities along with prisoners in cramped areas with no food and limited water supply. The projected relief will take so long to arrive that the people are now restless.

Post by **blood.angel** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:29 am

It was cat 5 on the sea.
It was cat 4 when it struck land.
blood.angel wins this round.

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:29 am

...The hurricane was a natural disaster, the flooding is not.

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:30 am

blood.angel wrote:It was cat 5 on the sea.
It was cat 4 when it struck land.
blood.angel wins this round.

Immaterial, because the levies were built to withstand category 3 hurricanes and below.

Post by **duffman91** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:31 am

Foo wrote:...The hurricane was a natural disaster, the flooding is not.

I want to live in this world where flooding is not considered a natural disaster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/ ... orms.shtml

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:32 am

duffman91 wrote:
Foo wrote:...The hurricane was a natural disaster, the flooding is not.
I want to live in this world where flooding is not considered a natural disaster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/ ... orms.shtml

Flooding in a city which has been solely protected by man-made concrete barriers.

You're right, that's totally a natural disaster!

lol.

EDIT: Anywhichway, you're getting off the point. The flooding was something which could have been prevented and was known about well in advance.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/581820/posts

Seriously.. I don't know why I'm bothering to present all this information to someone who is throwing it back in my face.

Post by **duffman91** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:34 am

Foo wrote:
duffman91 wrote:
Foo wrote:...The hurricane was a natural disaster, the flooding is not.
I want to live in this world where flooding is not considered a natural disaster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/ ... orms.shtml
Flooding in a city which has been solely protected by man-made concrete barriers.

You're right, that's totally a natural disaster!

lol.

I can't believe you're this stupid. Have fun in your interenets.

Post by **blood.angel** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:35 am

duffman91 wrote: 1)New Orleans being hit by a Category 5 hurricane was thought unlikelly to happen. In fact, the levees built were theorized to be able to handle Cat 5 hurricane winds and water fall.

As I mentioned earlier that a scientist who published a New Orlean hurricane disaster warning three months ago said that it was a 1 in 200 chance that it would be hit by a cat 5 hurricane.
Ill try to find the prog.

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:36 am

duffman91 wrote:
Foo wrote:
duffman91 wrote: I want to live in this world where flooding is not considered a natural disaster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/ ... orms.shtml
Flooding in a city which has been solely protected by man-made concrete barriers.

You're right, that's totally a natural disaster!

lol.

I can't believe you're this stupid. Have fun in your interenets.

This from the guy that thought the levies were built to withstand cat 5? You're solely the owner of all the stupidity in this thread.

While I'm here waiting for a download, back over the other points I didn't address:

2)Don't forget that major roads to and from New Orleans (and other cities) are completelly submerged. They are having trouble mass transporting the survivors out of the city. Alot of people are covered with 20 feet of water in all directions. The people in the stadium arena are being told that they can't leave untill help arrives.

Sure. That's why they loaded people onto buses from the superdome
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/ ... 0783.shtml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/s ... 77,00.html

Finally, nobody is at fault. Inadequate preventions were made for a situation with a extreme low chance of occurrence.

Nobody is at fault because inadequate preventions were made? Which part of inadequate preventions isn't...inadequate?

To put things in perspective, the odds of flood defences in New Orleans being wiped out by a hurricane were pegged at 1 in 200, and the flood defences were not upgraded. By contrast holland's chances of the same thing happening were placed at (off the top of my head) 40,000 to 1, yet they spent hundreds of millions boosting their flood defences so they would protect against that unlikely of events.

Post by **losCHUNK** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:36 am

only cat 3 levies ? when building a city under water i think the strongest cat 5 repellent levies would be one of the most important things

Post by **shadd_** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:42 am

this issue has been written about time and time again. everyone and there dog knew this was going to happen sooner or later.

look for a national geographic story on this from awhile back.

Post by **mjrpes** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:54 am

Foo wrote:
mjrpes wrote:
Foo wrote:...nearly 5 days since the hurricane struck...
The levee broke very late Monday, so that would put us at the end of day three for response to the event that has led up to the riots and anarchy in New Orleans.
The break was predicted as soon as the storm intensified to cat 5 offshore. Which I think was about 24-48 hours before the storm hit.

The mayor himself was categorically stating that the levies would not hold above a certain wind speed, and that this hurricane's wind speed would almost certainly be higher.

And then the storm past. And the levees seemed OK after the storm passed. In that time period between the passing of the hurricane and the actual breaking of the levees there was a sense of relief... and this relief, even though in error, resulted in a delay of the massive response that would be needed to evacuate the whole city once the flooding started.

I think it is ill to completely throw all blame on the US government. Of course, the US shares a good part of the blame for the flooding. But I think you have to be clear where exactly you are aiming your blame. Are you ranting the preparation of a city like New Orleans for a category 5 hurricane, or are you ranting at the emergency response of the government upon the city being flooded?

I agree that the government could have done much better with the former, but with the latter I think that it is very difficult in general to know what to do when a complete city has to be evacuated. Think about it, the last time a large city has had to be evacuated in the US was with the burning of San Francisco in 1906. Seeing that a large city has never had to have been evacuated in modern times, don't be surprised if the government acts clumsy and gets a lot of things wrong. How could they not? Civility will break down, there will be anarchy, even the police will take part in it, and that's what happens when food and water and electricity become unavailable to 100,000 angry and unrestrained people.

The US will learn a lot from this, as they should. I don't think there is any disagreement that the government fucked up and could have done a lot better.

Post by **HM-PuFFNSTuFF** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:07 am

Post by **R00k** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:50 am

Foo wrote:I sure as hell wouldn't concern myself with taking people's pets away from them..

You really can't see the significance of letting the small matters drop when the big matters are in turmoil?

Seriously, you're a fucking fool.

I know that if I was in charge of evacuating tens of thousands of people from any situation, I would tell them 'people only at this point in time.'

And I'm sure that if no diseases, animal bites, or phobias broke loose, then I would be called a fool for not letting animals aboard.

edit:

I would tell them 'people only at this point in time.'

like I said, unless you have a small enough animal that you could reasonably keep it under control in your lap.

Post by **R00k** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:10 am

The bottom line is this. Yes, people reacted differently during the tsunami - as they would react differently anywhere. The floodwaters in the tsunami receded, and people were able to come in and help.

But picture this. You take any city in the world, and you drop a circular wall around it that's about 50 or 60 miles in radius. Then tell the 100,000 people there that there is not enough food or water for everyone to have enough. That's essentially the same thing that happened here. People are still animals - not only metaphorically, but technically as well.

Post by **YourGrandpa** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:44 am

People are dieing and all you armchair idiots are doing is arguing over why. You should spend the time that you are wasting here doing something about this disaster if you think you know so much.

Noone could have known that this was definitely going to happen. All anyone could have done was speculate and therorize. Sure everyone could have been better prepared, but that won't change a thing now.

What this area and it's people need is aid. Quit second guessing reality and deal with the "here and now".

Put up or shut up.

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:51 am

YourGrandpa wrote:People are dieing and all you armchair idiots are doing is arguing over why. You should spend the time that you are wasting here doing something about this disaster if you think you know so much.

Noone could have known that this was definitely going to happen. All anyone could have done was speculate and therorize. Sure everyone could have been better prepared, but that won't change a thing now.

What this area and it's people need is aid. Quit second guessing reality and deal with the "here and now".

Put up or shut up.

What on earth?

What specifically do you suppose someone such as myself should be doing right now?

I've tracked the entire event almost non-stop since 2 days before the hurricane hit, and have shared the information I gathered with everyone who wanted to know.

The other possibilities are:
1. Go to New Orleans and help out - possible, but that would mean booking a flight from birmingham, taking 24 hours to get across (at the very least), paying several hundred pounds.. then what?
2. Donate - aside from being a poor student, money just isn't an issue here. The richest nation in the world I think can stump up the cash to recover one of its cities without the help of other nations. Second to that, the idea that whenever there's a disaster somewhere, people simply donate and then feel better about things sickens me slightly. Sure if the money truly is needed and there's no more appropriate source, it makes sense, but in this instance it's not warranted at all.

Anyway.. that's the only post I'm going to waste on justifying myself to someone who's typing nonsense. 'put up or shut up'... are you retarded? That doesn't even make sense in the context of what you were saying.

Post by **R00k** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:01 am

So you also don't think it helps the communities to donate money to them?

Post by **YourGrandpa** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:04 am

Foo wrote: What on earth?

What specifically do you suppose someone such as myself should be doing right now?

I've tracked the entire event almost non-stop since 2 days before the hurricane hit, and have shared the information I gathered with everyone who wanted to know.

The other possibilities are:
1. Go to New Orleans and help out - possible, but that would mean booking a flight from birmingham, taking 24 hours to get across (at the very least), paying several hundred pounds.. then what?
2. Donate - aside from being a poor student, money just isn't an issue here. The richest nation in the world I think can stump up the cash to recover one of its cities without the help of other nations. Second to that, the idea that whenever there's a disaster somewhere, people simply donate and then feel better about things sickens me slightly. Sure if the money truly is needed and there's no more appropriate source, it makes sense, but in this instance it's not warranted at all.

Anyway.. that's the only post I'm going to waste on justifying myself to someone who's typing nonsense. 'put up or shut up'... are you retarded? That doesn't even make sense in the context of what you were saying.

You said it yourself, you can't offer anything but your perspective. Well let me help you out with something. Your perspective isn't worth the shit floating around the streets in New Orleans. If you're not doing something to help resolve the problem, then all you've become is a part of the problem. Why not not try shutting your inexperienced mouth if you can't be helpful. Nothing you're saying now is going to even come close to fixing the situation or changing things in the future.

Put up or shut up means, do something or fuck off.

Thanks.

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:07 am

Haha, it seems that by stating my opinion, posting links to media, and generally discussing the matter, I'm offending you.

Land of the free, what a complete fucking joke you are gramps. Just you, mind.

Well if it makes you feel better to know it, I'm not posting any of this to personally offend you, although it clearly is doing so.

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:10 am

R00k wrote:So you also don't think it helps the communities to donate money to them?

To what would I be donating money in this case? The US government has billions at its disposal to rectify this if it so chooses. We're not taking about a 3rd world backwater that simply does not have the necessary funds, and depends on charities for relief efforts. The US has the means and the agencies necessary to react to this crisis.

Money just isn't an issue here.

Post by **YourGrandpa** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:13 am

Foo wrote:Haha, it seems that by stating my opinion, posting links to media, and generally discussing the matter, I'm offending you.

Land of the free, what a complete fucking joke you are gramps. Just you, mind.

Well if it makes you feel better to know it, I'm not posting any of this to personally offend you, although it clearly is doing so.

Don't break yourself up over this kid. You're just a stupid little boy who likes to pop off, pretending to be so worldly and wise. I know this, and I'm simply reminding you of that fact.

Quit trying to act like you know something about whats going on in those disaster areas. Because you really don't have a clue.

Post by **Foo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:14 am

I can't beleive you have so much anger against me when all I've done is discuss the matter here.

What have I done that upsets you so much?