Just remember folks, I called this. immortality.

[Κracus]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/20 ... tists.html


A possibility by 2045.

This place is like a catalogue of various predictions by me.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Did you also predict you'd beat me with a lead pipe?

[PrMink]

only a moron would want to live forever...

[obsidian]

Seems like a complete rip-off of Kurzweil's exponential predictions of a technological singularity, also quoting the year 2045 as when it all happens. Assuming society doesn't implode in a mass event like nuclear war, or our planet's resources aren't depleted before 2045, or any other catastrophic event, it's actually plausible.

This is the stuff authors like William Gibson and Arthur C. Clarke have written about for years.

[GONNAFISTYA]

I always have to laugh at those that think that having a copy of you living forever means that YOU live forever. No...you die and the copy lives on. This is the precise reason I'd never want to be teleported. If I can stick my arm through the teleporter, have some person on the other side poke it with a needle and I can still feel it, then maybe I'd consider it. If I didn't feel anything, that means the person on the other side poked the COPY with the needle...not ME.

To have your consciousness "copied" to anything means that only a copy has been transferred....not you. Seriously...it's amazing how many people never actually think of that when they say they'd love to be "uploaded into a computer", teleported somewhere or cloned.

[Tsakali]

You are a collection of memories...i don't see the problem as long as the new copy has all memory intact and has no recollection of your abrupt death in the process. Or are you one of those morons that believe in a soul?

[obsidian]

There's a difference between a teleporter (something that creates a duplicate and destroys the original - like in Star Trek) and a portal (like in Valve's game). Portals are holes in space and it's the situation where you can stick your hand through and it's still really you. Teleporters would disassemble your arm (perhaps converting matter to energy and "beaming" it someplace) to have it reconstructed at the other end.

[GONNAFISTYA]

You are a collection of memories...i don't see the problem as long as the new copy has all memory intact and has no recollection of your abrupt death in the process. Or are you one of those morons that believe in a soul?

You are not a collection of memories, your experience is a collection of memories. You are a living, metabolizing entity and it doesn't matter if the new copy has all the memory intact...because you'll still be dead. You don't see a problem with being dead?

[obsidian]

Tsakali, the question is what would happen if there was a teleporter accident and the original copy was not destroyed? There would be two of you. Which one is the "real" one? Which one should we destroy to maintain continuity?

If we destroy the original, "you" are in fact dead. Instead, you have a duplicate running around who looks and behaves exactly like you, but as far as you're concerned isn't really you.

[Κracus]

I always have to laugh at those that think that having a copy of you living forever means that YOU live forever. No...you die and the copy lives on. This is the precise reason I'd never want to be teleported. If I can stick my arm through the teleporter, have some person on the other side poke it with a needle and I can still feel it, then maybe I'd consider it. If I didn't feel anything, that means the person on the other side poked the COPY with the needle...not ME.

To have your consciousness "copied" to anything means that only a copy has been transferred....not you. Seriously...it's amazing how many people never actually think of that when they say they'd love to be "uploaded into a computer", teleported somewhere or cloned.

If you think of prosthetics this concept can be dumbed down. If you get a prosthetic leg, you're still you. An arm, still you. An eye, still you. What happens when your brain is damaged? You're still you but what if they had a prosthetic to replace the part of your brain that was damaged. Works just like the original part. You go on the table, go under, wake up and never feel the difference, except maybe a headache. Are you still you? The whole brain was replaced, just one aspect, like maybe short term memory. If you replace your whole brain, 1 piece at a time in this way, at what point do you die? Or do you die at all?

[Κracus]

You are a collection of memories...i don't see the problem as long as the new copy has all memory intact and has no recollection of your abrupt death in the process. Or are you one of those morons that believe in a soul?

You are not a collection of memories, your experience is a collection of memories. You are a living, metabolizing entity and it doesn't matter if the new copy has all the memory intact...because you'll still be dead. You don't see a problem with being dead?

Soul no, but consciousness yes. If you think your consciousness is just a result of a combination of physiological actions and re-actions then you wouldn't be aware of yourself anymore than an avalanche is aware that it's tumbling. The fact you know you're experiencing something should signal to you that you can't simply be a deterministic being.

[GONNAFISTYA]

There's a difference between a teleporter (something that creates a duplicate and destroys the original - like in Star Trek) and a portal (like in Valve's game). Portals are holes in space and it's the situation where you can stick your hand through and it's still really you. Teleporters would disassemble your arm (perhaps converting matter to energy and "beaming" it someplace) to have it reconstructed at the other end.

I'm assuming that with Portals that they are simply wormholes, your body is not disintegrated and reintegrated, but only moving though spacetime. I wouldn't have a problem with that as people move through spacetime all-day-every-day, just on a different scale.

But regarding putting yourself into a computer...I'm sorry but we have to go back to the same problem with integration: it's a copy, not you.

[Tsakali]

plus, it will render stuff like president assassinations obsolete...or rather a much more complicated process with many possibilities. Either destroying every trace of what is you on any software/hardware backup, or possibly infusing your next unsuspecting "copy" with a biovirus...which opens up an entirely new level of "fuck you".

[Κracus]

Like I'm saying Tsakali, it doesn't even need to be a copy, I think ti's possible to move your actual consciousness from a biological body to a mechanical version by using prostheses.

[Tsakali]

Tsakali, the question is what would happen if there was a teleporter accident and the original copy was not destroyed? There would be two of you. Which one is the "real" one? Which one should we destroy to maintain continuity?

If we destroy the original, "you" are in fact dead. Instead, you have a duplicate running around who looks and behaves exactly like you, but as far as you're concerned isn't really you.

yes new laws will have to be put in place to define the proper line of action under the circumstances. Ignoring the fact that such teleporter will prolly have a ridiculous amount of redundancy built in...yeah as far as you and everyone else should be concerned , your copy is still you. This is starting to look like a philosophical subject more than anything else.

[obsidian]

It's still duplication and destruction. At one point of this process, you would have your brain duplicated to some computer and the brain itself destroyed. Now you might not mind the process as being purely voluntary, but it's still the destruction of the original "you" to let the duplicate live as if it were the original.

Think again if something were to happen were the original brain was not destroyed and is still functional and conscious, would it still want to be destroyed even though there is a digital replica? At that exact point in time, there would be two living consciousnesses.

[GONNAFISTYA]

If you think of prosthetics this concept can be dumbed down. If you get a prosthetic leg, you're still you. An arm, still you. An eye, still you. What happens when your brain is damaged? You're still you but what if they had a prosthetic to replace the part of your brain that was damaged. Works just like the original part. You go on the table, go under, wake up and never feel the difference, except maybe a headache. Are you still you? The whole brain was replaced, just one aspect, like maybe short term memory. If you replace your whole brain, 1 piece at a time in this way, at what point do you die? Or do you die at all?

If you're replacing brain tissue one part at a time, then you are still you. The reason is the same reason you keep living: your body regenerates tissue without shutting any systems down. Anyone over the age of 30 has not only replaced every cell in their body, but they've actually replaced EVERY ATOM. How mind boggling is that? If you're over 30 you are literally NOT the person you were when you were born.

I see your point as it simply relates to "speed of replacement" but I have to say that if I had a prosthetic leg, arm or eyeball, I am still me, but the prosthetic isn't and never will be. Eyeglasses and wristwatches aren't part of you either, so why should a piece of kevlar?

[obsidian]

as far as you and everyone else should be concerned , your copy is still you.

Well that's incorrect. Everyone else might think it's you. But if both you and your copy are both alive and functional, YOU would not think the copy is you. You would naturally object at others treating the copy as you. Who gets to fuck your girlfriend/wife? You or your copy?

[Tsakali]

I totally get you, but i totally don't have an issue with it. It's kinda like saying what will happen if you get in a terrible wreck but you don't die. People still drive around voluntarily.

The law in place will probably decide that the still living, damaged original version of you (which probably by the time an error like that takes place the actual original you would have been already teleported countless of times over , so it wont really be your original) will have to be euthanized

[Κracus]

It's still duplication and destruction. At one point of this process, you would have your brain duplicated to some computer and the brain itself destroyed. Now you might not mind the process as being purely voluntary, but it's still the destruction of the original "you" to let the duplicate live as if it were the original.

Think again if something were to happen were the original brain was not destroyed and is still functional and conscious, would it still want to be destroyed even though there is a digital replica? At that exact point in time, there would be two living consciousnesses.

True I guess. I see consciousness and memory/experience/ego as two seperate things. If the portion of my brain that contains my memories and experience were replaced with a prosthetic that behaves exactly the same way and has all the same memories, experiences then I would be ok with that since I don't feel that it affects my consciousness which is to say my ability to choose, IE: free will.

I also believe that upon death your consciousness doesn't die with your body and there's some studies I've read that support the concept that consciousness is shared among all beings. The only thing that makes us different is the physical memories and experience we have.

[MKJ]

Did you also predict you'd beat me with a lead pipe?

no, he promised that.
roflcopters.

[obsidian]

Who gets to fuck your girlfriend/wife? You or your copy?

Correct answer: MKJ, and he'll get her preggers.

[Κracus]

If you think of prosthetics this concept can be dumbed down. If you get a prosthetic leg, you're still you. An arm, still you. An eye, still you. What happens when your brain is damaged? You're still you but what if they had a prosthetic to replace the part of your brain that was damaged. Works just like the original part. You go on the table, go under, wake up and never feel the difference, except maybe a headache. Are you still you? The whole brain was replaced, just one aspect, like maybe short term memory. If you replace your whole brain, 1 piece at a time in this way, at what point do you die? Or do you die at all?

If you're replacing brain tissue one part at a time, then you are still you. The reason is the same reason you keep living: your body regenerates tissue without shutting any systems down. Anyone over the age of 30 has not only replaced every cell in their body, but they've actually replaced EVERY ATOM. How mind boggling is that? If you're over 30 you are literally NOT the person you were when you were born.

I see your point as it simply relates to "speed of replacement" but I have to say that if I had a prosthetic leg, arm or eyeball, I am still me, but the prosthetic isn't and never will be. Eyeglasses and wristwatches aren't part of you either, so why should a piece of kevlar?

The only reason you feel that way is because prosthetics are nowhere near perfected at this point. However, we can see that they've been evolving and getting better and better. So good in fact that they want to prevent people using prosthetic legs from competing in the olympics.

I suspect at some point in time, soon, someone will create a prosthetic that behaves EXACTLY like the original limb/organ. At this point, it WILL feel like you because you will actually possess the same sensations you used to have. If you apply that concept to replacement parts for your brain then you get the scenario I was describing. The problem some people have is accepting that some day we might actually perfect a prosthetic so good that it's feels the same as the real thing.

[Κracus]

as far as you and everyone else should be concerned , your copy is still you.

Well that's incorrect. Everyone else might think it's you. But if both you and your copy are both alive and functional, YOU would not think the copy is you. You would naturally object at others treating the copy as you. Who gets to fuck your girlfriend/wife? You or your copy?

I think if you create a copy of yourself, insert it in a digital device that device will not be conscious. I think it would be a little like cloning an entire body, part by part and then putting it together. Sure you have a body but there's no consciousness there.

[DooMer]

What if you are on your death bed and the option is available to you? Technically it may not be you, but it would make all the same decisions and choices as you, and live on forever. At that point, why not? You can think of it as a totally sweet memorial.