Focal Point - Final

[sock]

Well I spoke to the organizers of the NoGhost competition and they said anyone is allowed to post public beta's of their map and get additional feedback. So here is Beta 2 of my competition map.

I know this forum is mostly populated by mappers but if anyone wants to pop over to the noghost test server and give the map a spin then please do. I am not going to discuss any technical things I did in this map until after the competition, so don't ask!

The map is setup with 2 item layouts, FFA and 1v1/TDM and full bot support for that offline frantic runaround. If you have any experience playing this map on the server or with bots I would like to hear about. The map architecture is pretty much set in stone at this point but if you have any suggestions on item placement or balance issues then I would love to hear about it.

Web information page and download linky:

http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/maps_q3/focal.htm
** Source files have been released as well**

Screenshot:
[lvlshot]http://www.simonoc.com/images/design/ma ... ocal1l.jpg[/lvlshot]
EDIT:Changed title

[AEon]

Just some technical stuff...

• Sparklies: SG logo on the wall, upper edge of logo.
• Sparklies: Near the GL, niche under steps/ramp (right wall has ATi Logo), upper and lower edge of that wall (lamp shining on it) shows sparklies.
• All your yellow respawn pads, e.g. for the GL, show a halo at the top end where the yellow effect is transparent. This is only visible at some distance of the spawn pads. My guess is that at the distance the engine moves your very bright yellow lower end to the top of the up-side down cone (1 pixel or so) thus creating that very narrow ring. This is perceivable as a "flicker" when you move towards the pads. On a brush that would mean to make the cones just 1u less high, on a patch that would be a bit more tedious.
• Sock, not your fault... but the folks who created the competition should release some hi-res logos for the walls. The present lo-res decals are ugly. The AMD logo needs an empty "edge". Mapping it completely on a wall element (texture fit), makes it look very "squashed" into place.
  
  IMO, those "ad banners" are dead ugly as they are, and really pull down the beauty of the map . Some clever monitor showing them like the Q3A logo in q3dm17, would help make them less eye-poking.

[sock]

Sparklies: SG logo on the wall, upper edge of logo.
Sparklies: Near the GL, niche under steps/ramp (right wall has ATi Logo), upper and lower edge of that wall (lamp shining on it) shows sparklies.

Can you give me some screenshots of where the sparklies are?
I will fix the weapon spawn, that is a model so one easy update. I will shift the texture on the patch to hide the seam. I will be releasing a full high resolution version (skybox is really low res atm) without adverts after the contest for people to enjoy the art side of things. Also will release the source map and models so everyone can check it out, but that is certainly after the deadline. If you want to view the current map without adverts, edit the shader file to turn off the images.

I was going to add screens or frames to the logo's but I went for the quick decal route instead. I want to keep the FPS / rspeeds really low for this map so that it can be played on old systems. I had planned some futuristic neon lit signs with energy streams and things moving around but I just don't have the time to create it properly so that it looks good.

Also lighting, was it too dark, too bright, just right? any places you think could be brighter? Any clipping issues? any bot issues? I think I got most of the bot snag points. They still do stupid stuff by the JP next to the beam, bad design of JP, it is back to front

[AEon]

Lighting, IMO, was fine. But I'll give the map a *real* spin playing against bots tomorrow, and give feedback on that in detail.

The sparklies in your map are strange. I am pretty sure almost everything is brushes, so those sparklies really should not be happening in the first place. In Hiptshot's Solar there were actually such brush based sparklies as well, had to recreate all the brushes in that particular area to fix it though. A simple "Snap to Grid" (Ctrl+G) for the vertices, alas, did not work. Anyway looking through the map I found several more of them:

• 

Hope that helps.

Update: I seem to get it now: Those v-columns are made of patches, to get the textures to align properly, and those got copy/pasted all over the place, and the ceiling brushes in many areas had not yet been cut up to avoid the sparklies though?

[Theftbot]

I don't see any sparklies-weird

[AEon]

Could be my very old PC, using an ATi X800, with drivers (Catalyst v6.08) something like 3 years old makes it way more obvious on my system to find and see those. Possibly modern ATi or Nvidia drivers / cards have found a "fix" (more like a hack) for those.

[Anwulf]

And my days of seeing sparklies also seem to have passed.

But I did spot an untextured brush face on the left-hand side of the stairs up from the RL to the haste/quad area. It's at the RL end. I also note that through the window near the RL you can see a small part of the map which ought not to be visible, but it's minor and you have to go looking for it.

Actually the reason why I found the untextured brush face was because I thought that the structure beside the stairs could do with clipping off because I got caught on it.

Didn't spot anything else worth mentioning, but I'm badly out of practice in the world of beta testing.

Perhaps one or two bots too many, which might make more health available. I think I survived without getting fragged once, but it was only by the skin of my teeth.

[scythe]

Sock,
Really good looking map, just had to get that out of the way.

Bots played fine for me, really. Pretty "frantic" and fast paced. I didn't notice any major issues with them, though they seemed to get stuck briefly/occasionally on the wall columns, but I doubt there's much you can do about that.

It seemed to me like the spawns were really close together. I sometimes spawned simultaneously with a bot, and it felt like they were right on top of me.

Lighting was probably perfect for a tourney map, there were no areas that were too bright or dark. If anything the lighting was a little "flat", though the blue accents from the j-pads were really lovely. I might try and get a little warmer light color off of the yellow ceiling lights, but that's just my personal preference.

I didn't see any sparklies on my setup (nvidia 8800).

Excellent map. I can't wait to see the high-res version.

[AEon]

One small thing I noted: Near the PG there are two "niches" entering from one of the corridors, that are weapclip but not player clipped. You can get stuck on those.

On gameflow... take this as a only mildly educated comment: I had the feeling that the RA room was somewhat glued on - a "dead end" (not actually, just the feeling). When you go for the RA on the upper level, you have to backtrack if you want to stay on the upper level. I always wanted a path right past the RA and JP there, to continue onward through the wall on level 2. Coming from the three lower level JPs you also have the situation where you got up, have to take some sharp turns to grab the RA, and then *again* have to backtrack, or bite into the sour apple and leave the upper level to continue the flow. After playing some more, I noted that your three lower level JPs worked pretty well in gameflow, though I still feel that there is one JP too many in that area. Probably is just me... but if the comment has any merit, I could take a top-down shot and sketch out an idea or two.

[AEon]

Strange FPS slowdown:

• Something I find a bit strange in a map with such low r_speeds (11K max, but a lot lower everywhere else) is the significant drop in FPS once the bots play in the map. It should even on my old system be more than 100 FPS, but it actually drops down to 50 FPS quite often. The other thing that is strange, is the size of the AAS file - 300KB - that's about the size of the AEdm7 file... and that map is a *lot* larger. Your angled walls seem to "bloat" the .aas, and I have the suspicion they also up the amount of CPU cycles required to "power" the AI (my P4 2.54 MHz is CPU limited). In other words the map should play much more fluidly.
  
  Botclipping your walls more aggressively (using brush blocks), could make the map play even faster (I think). Maybe you are pushing some other limit that I am not aware of that is causing the slowdown. Note... the map runs well enough now, only makes me wonder.

Some other suggestions:

• You properly clipped the niches near the PG, only that the angled wall (intruding into the corridor) makes the player snag on them. The playerclip will need to be angled as well here.
• 45° playerclip on the edges of the columns be behind the RL should help folky running up the platform backwards, fending off bots trying to reach the RL. Presently you get stuck.
• Forget my comment about the RA area... it's fine... personally I would have cut into the wall to create a path, but that is not required. The area is fun to play once you understand how the JPs are linked to the upper level paths.
• "Design idea": I was a bit disappointed that the RA transparent cone is not actually red, that made me think: Use the blue cones for the weapons, a yellow one for the YA, a red one for the RA, and green ones for the health (50H IIRC, maybe orange). Well maybe - /me ducks and runs for cover .
• The hinting you did is a bit "strange"... no matter, I probably just don't understand it (I'll probably ask about this after the competition). What you might want to do is place hint brushes to the left and right of the lower level light tower column. The line of sight RL to RA has 11k r_speeds, so using the lower central column to block vis, would help bring down the tris counts. Same in the other direction looking from the RA. Presenly you can see all of the RA area from the RL, and that should not be happening.
• I'd also suggest removing one bot from the .arena file to make the map a tad less frantic in FFA with bots.
• I now understand your patch usage... no wonder sparklies show all over the place. Cutting up the brushes will be a pain. But I seem to be the only one who sees them... so you may be lucky .
• Might be nice to open up a window presently closed with a "shutter" (=stair texture) - path Quad to RA, upper level, angled wall with 3 windows on left, the one in the middle. To let in some skybox here?

Map is fun to play, and looks quite nice, gameflow is interesting. As mentioned I really like your light beam, the JP effects, the weapon/item spawns... all very neat.

[neoplan]

Hi, found a couple of things:

1) I can stand up there:
[lvlshot]http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4240/12597991.jpg[/lvlshot]

2) Actually a funny bug - if u rocketJump into the edge, you get stuck - maybe brush is not on grid:
[lvlshot]http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5453/shot0004x.jpg[/lvlshot]

3) You can see caulked surfaces:
[lvlshot]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8098/shot0009x.jpg[/lvlshot]

4) Hard Edge:
[lvlshot]http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7222/shot0015x.jpg[/lvlshot]

5) Skybox:
[lvlshot]http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5748/shot0016e.jpg[/lvlshot]

[sock]

Ok thanks everyone who has taken the time to look at the map, much appreciated.

@Aeon, wow that is alot of feedback. I went through all your sparklies screenshots and I think I fixed all of them. It is hard to tell because I can't see any sparklies in my map. (probably newish gfx cards are better with tjunctions)

Ad banners, is in the competition rules and trust me, I have asked on several occasions for better/higher resolution images and none have appeared. The best I can do is re-scale them a bit so they are not so stretched. It took me a while to get greyscale versions, the ATI colour one was glowing originally in my map! I will produce my own version of the map after the competition without adverts and higher res stuff.

I had a look at the weapon halo's and I cannot reproduce the pixel bug you are getting. I tried different resolutions and distances but nothing. So I rechecked the textures and made sure they both of them have a huge black border at the top and bottom of the texture. The only other thing I can think of is you are having a problem with mipmaps.

@Anwulf, yep found the hole behind the stairs, got that fixed. It sounds like you had a good match vs bots which is good news. The map is suppose to feel frantic and fast, so more bots is greater chance of conflict, well for me. Thank for the comments.

@scythe , umm did the bots keep getting stuck on the same columns? I can always extend their clipping if necessary. I am surprised you thought the lighting was flat, I tried to vary the brightness throughout the level and have the jumppads glowing. Ive also reduced the spawns down a bit, there are 12 so it should not feel too crowded but the Q3 random spawn code is not great for sure.

@Aeon (part 2), yep clipped off those niches by the PG, I originally just did the lower part, not the upper. The RA room is certainly an odd location because of the RA item, but it should still feel connected because the upper route curls around the outside of the room space. There are 2 upper and one lower routes so it should be ok for the flow through the room. The extra JP from the GL to the RA is so that you can cut off players going for the RA via the lower route. Fly up the JP, bounce the approaching player with a rocket off to the side and collect RA

Ok not sure what the strange FPS slowdown is without more information. Was it only in one area? How many bots loaded? Were the bots around you at the time? Was your machine busy with something else? I know the sky portal is hard on texture memory plus combined with all the other high res textures it can be bad on video memory, but try the latest version (will post it today) it has alot less textures.

I have added loads of 45 degree clip around the columns behind the RL, so you should roll of the walls if you move backwards in that area. The different light cones for items is certainly a cool idea but I cannot add anymore shaders or textures to the map. In order for the map to be compatible with Q3 v1.16 (sort of a pre-rule requirement) I cannot add anymore without hitting engine shader limit. (v1.16 is really hard on extra content)

The hinting is certainly strange, but there are technical reason for it being the way it is, that will become apparent when you see the actual source file. (I will talk about this after the competition) I added shutters to the corner of the corridors to try and make each area a bit different. The corner with all the windows closed is suppose to feel dark and artificial, so that when you come out to the beam it feels brighter and more impressive.

@neoplan , not sure how you are up in the corner (first screenshot) the area is fully clipped. I have extended the clipping a bit further into the room, so hopefully that should be gone. Screenshot 2, those lights are made of patches all snapped to the grid 1, so not sure why that is happening but I have added extra clip brushes around the shape to stop the player getting stuck. Also done extra clipping to all the other 45 degree lights as well. Screenshot 3, I knew some crazy rocket jumper would find some caulk somewhere! hehe, poly's added. Screenshot 4, is an edge in the alpha map, not easy to remove at the moment, on my wish list of things to do.

The other thing that is strange, is the size of the AAS file - 300KB - that's about the size of the AEdm7 file... and that map is a *lot* larger.

Do I get a prize for beating the size Aedm7 bot file!?!

[AEon]

Sock,

• Strange about the sparklies... I play at 1680x1050, with all the in-game gfx settings set to maximum. It is sometimes easier to see them when using r_lightmap, I am using v1.32c, not ioquake3. I found a few other areas, will look at the update and point them out.
• The noghost folks should really get off their butt and update the textures for the ads. I'll say it a bit more brutally, maybe that helps motivate the organizers... "If I were an advertiser, seeing such a beautiful map, to then see my ad banner in such a crummy resolution, I'd be ticked off, and rethink my sponsoring."... again, Sock not your fault, it's theirs. My griping is not about banners or no banners, but about the quality of them.
  
  You could maybe scale them down by 30%, just to give the illusion of a more detailed texture. I noted the monochrome ATi decal, that certainly looks better.
• "Compatible with Q3 v1.16 (sort of a pre-rule requirement)"... ahem... who would *ever* use that version after all those years... oh brother (again, to be clear, not your fault). No matter, a discussion of the limits could be interesting after the competition, never heard of those, knowing them could help understand the v1.32 limits.
• Hope you will try the RL to RA hint brushes to reduce the r_speeds a bit, this should help.
• AAS file size was more of a "technical" idea (for later), I am suspecting the AAS is more complicated than it need be, taking up more CPU cycles, thus the slowdowns. An "academic" reduction in file size, presently, is obviously a waste of time.

My old system seems to be a very good indicator for "issues", because cleanly built (simple) maps will run really well, those with slight issues will make them apparent, also see sparklies. Will take a look at your update later. A large use of video memory may be a bottleneck on my system as well. Where does one check for the video memory usage?

[Bacon]

Sorry to hijack your thread, but what is "noghost"? I looked on thier site and it doesen't even tell you what it does?

Sick looking map btw, liking the colors

[sock]

Here is beta 3, probably will be the last beta as the competition deadline is tomorrow.
[lvlshot]http://www.simonoc.com/files/beta/focal_beta3.jpg[/lvlshot]

Web Linky : http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/maps_q3/focal.htm
If anyone spots last minute sparklies or minor changes, please let me know.

@bacon, The competition page

Thanks

[AEon]

Issues:

• The ad banners now look a *lot* better after scaling them down, and *not* squashing them on the complete brush/patch faces.
• Many of your v-shaped column patches have a sparklie issue at the top end. I'd recommend you check the cutting up of brushes for all those columns, just to be sure. Especially the one next to the SG, edge above maverick logo (see arrow; 3rd shot from top, on right).
• There are a few weird light bleeding issues. I have no idea how these might be fixed though.
• Near the GL I still have clipping issues with that wall, plus a new one.
• Added a detail shot for the light halo's I am seeing on the blue up-side down spawn cones. The yellow ones do not show this.

• 

• 

• 

Hope that helps.

[sock]

@Aeon, wow you are star I have gone through the map again trying to squash those damn sparklies. The clipping I am nervous about doing because it will restrict the player space and the clip brushes would have to come out a long way into the corridor to be perfectly smooth for the wall. The light issues, yeah I need to apply more light bleeding hacks to those area's. Will be back with an update soonly. Any fun with bots? Items have moved, any better games?

[AEon]

Plays quicker, your texture optimizations seem to have helped, I think.

• I know this is probably annoying to add, but giving the JP next to the Quad a slight angle would help, prepare the player for the direction he will be pushed - up and backwards to one side.
• The GL / PG swap yields interesting gameplay around the RA area. Good location for the GL I'd say.
• Strange, the RA JP has a nodrop brush, but still I had weapons and a power-up dropped and "stuck" there:
  • 
• Bots in FFA are fun to play on Hardcore.
• About the clipping near the GL... I understand what you mean, but that was not what I meant, i.e. having the clip intrude the corridor. Placing the clip flush with the walls should be enough there. My guess is one end (right in image) was not angled off, and the niche issue may have to do with some wall brush being slightly off grid. As a "hack" making the clip 1u intrude into the corridor should fix the problem.

[sock]

Beta 4:

Web Linky: http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/maps_q3/focal.htm
(Download link at top of page)

[lvlshot]http://www.simonoc.com/files/beta/focal_beta4.jpg[/lvlshot]

@Aeon, I have gone around and checked all the Y shaped column supports for triangle seams. Still no sparklies for me, so I am sort of guessing if they are really fixed or not. The light bleeding over by the YA corner is fixed, the one by the +50 is crazy, not sure what to do about that one. The blue item glows (Armour,health) have been re-mapped so (fingers crossed) they should be fixed. The nodrop brushes have been extended up to the top brushwork edge so they should catch any dropped item now. (Really good for stopping bot dumbness) The jump pad by the quad has been shifted over slightly, bots seem to like the change as well. They don't get so stuck as before on the lower lip of the platform.

The clipping by the GL is perfectly aligned to the wall but the top edge is a bit sharp for bumping around it while walking backwards. I will look into that one more.

[AEon]

Quick note to self:

• Put the idea of a nodrop brush into a FAQ or so, as a tip to avoid bot issues trying to access droped weapons/items near a JP trigger, but constantly missing them.
• Bring up the topic of light bleeding, and how that can be fixed (if at all), again after contest. (SolarAE has this issue under a detail brush bridge near at the lower edge to the wall.)

Looking at update.

[AEon]

Beta 4:

• .arena file has "focal_beta3" mentioned, breaking botplay from the menu.
• The fixed light bleeding near the YA (outside the window), *really* helps, and looks so much better.
• You have done a very consistent job on the sparklies, all the old ones I mentioned are fixed, especially the bad one near the maverick SG logo. But I found a few new ones I had so far overlooked. Mentioned below.
• The Quad JP works good for the bots, saw them take it quite often now. Though there is an angle that will not get you to the top, but onto the slightly lower ledge. Not sure this is really worth fixing. What Pat did in such situations is divide the JP trigger into two triggers / dest, to cover the strange angles as well.
• Noted a few other things, text see images, especially some black seams that do not quite align - in the images this cannot be seen, due to the scaling down.

• 

• 

[sock]

Yeah I caught the arena file mistake too late, but the current (beta 4) download file is fixed now. I think I have fixed the light bleeding for the roof near the +50H but I will need to test it more, before releasing it. Sadly it is too late to start changing JP triggers because I don't want the bots doing strange stuff. (Deadline is tomorrow) I think I have fixed all the new sparklies, the brushwork at all those locations certainly needed extra cuts. The ramps near the YA are suppose to be difficult and excluded from the bot file. I have raised the ramps by 8 units so it should be easier to time the jumps right. I have added some more clippage to that corner up the stairs from the GL but it is still not amazing.

Thanks for all your help Aeon, amazing feedback and I will release the map final tomorrow. I am sure I have probably missed a couple of things, but overall the map is really a solid release.

[AEon]

I was thinking with enough forward momentum, then using the wall as a ramp as well, it may just be possible to get to the YA.

Update: Hmm... don't know how... I actually just did it, four times... seems to be some bug with the way the bounding box for the player works and/or player movement prediction vs. geometry code, letting you use the sloped wall to get up just by that bit (if feels as if the player model was snagged in the geometry or on "ice"). Very strange... never did that before. Upping the ramps by 8u should make a lot, if not very easy.

Looking at the textures, there might be several of those "simple" ones in different sizes that could complement the AEcell set... well those weapon/item pads would also be very nifty .

[sock]

Final version:
[lvlshot]http://www.simonoc.com/images/design/ma ... _final.jpg[/lvlshot]

Web Link : http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/maps_q3/focal.htm

Special thanks to Aeon for all your help, you certainly made this map a more solid release.
This is the final release, no more updates. Competition deadline is today.
I will release all the source files next week, so hold on if you are wondering.

[AEon]

Will be interesting to see what the other contestants came up with.

BTW, could you spell "Aeon" "AEon" on your site... thanks ... well technically it is even Æon, but that usually does not work.

Update: Hmm... bit strange, IMO, that you named the .bsp focal_final.bsp and not focal_point.bsp or just focal.bsp.