[Alpha] quicke - FFA

[Silicone_Milk]

Hey guys. I dusted off some old hard drives I found while moving some stuff around and found a map I made in a couple hours.

I'm pretty much just looking to see what other people think of the flow, item placement, and line of sight. This is very much an early alpha which should be quite apparent by the blocky design and horrid use of textures. There is lighting (not just a -meta compile) and there is bot support.

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-1-2.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-2-1.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-3-1.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-4-1.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-5.jpg[/lvlshot]


Download Here


EDIT: All download links updated to latest alpha version.


Thanks

[AEon]

"Fun" FFA centered comments optimized for "good" bot play:

• Turn up the light ... I'd recommend a nice "lit" skybox and away with that gloomy wannabe hellish sky... I really hate those.
• Many areas are not accessible to the bots. The RG lift, requires a jump to get there, the bots fail to jump, just add some more stairs there. You'll need to add sounds to the lift, these are presently missing. The Quad/MH jumping, IMO is very old-school, and not really that much fun, hinders gameflow, again prohibiting the bots to grab it. Some AP that lets you fly past a floating Quad/MH might be better. For some reason the bots never go for the RA in the pool, strange. (Played Hunter, Major, Daemia on Hardcore). The bots also seem to have issues to jump onto "low platforms" with 25H, near your RL ammo pit of death.
• The 5H / 5A chains are a tad long IMO.
• If you nice up the gameflow around the RG, and then scale down all your paths by at least 25%, maybe even 50%. This could become an interesting "compact" map, possibly even with tourney appeal.
• IMO, the map could use some JPs and/or APs.

[Silicone_Milk]

Thanks for the response AEon.

Personally I've had a special place in my heart for the hell skies even though they're ugly as sin. I'll play around with that though since I feel that this sky just doesn't jive with the map.

I'm quite surprised you found the lift to be honest. Because of the long, wide corridors, I wanted the RG to be a tedious thing to get at and messed up the lip setting on the platform. I wasn't aware that lifts are missing sounds in Q3. Anyways, I fiddled with it for about a minute and this is what I'm thinking now (based on your stairs suggestion)

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/quicke.jpg[/lvlshot]

I also agree that the map does feel wrongly scaled. I'm definitely going to tighten things up tonight after chemistry lecture.

I'm not a huge fan of jump pads but there was a spot I wanted to add one down in the RA armor room to provide a quick way out that would also have the downside of making you railbait. Again, I'll have to tinker with the brushes a bit.

Thanks again!

[AEon]

The new stairs to the RG should work better.

You could try to grate off your pit of death, and connect that pit to the RA area as an alternate path. Keep the spikes though, for an exciting jump to almost death .

On JPs... recent map testing made it clear that if you do not need a JP, it is often is better not to use one (disrupts gameflow). But too many steep stairs - to gain height - are problematic as well, IMO. I like APs though...

[Silicone_Milk]

I liked the pit of death RA idea so I went ahead and put that in to see how that works.

I've modified some areas and added in a grenade launcher + 3 JPs.

Not overly confident on my addition of the GL balcony but I felt this map needed a GL and the balcony just sorta happened.

Trimmed down a couple routes but the Rocket Launcher balcony area kind of chafes with me. I dunno.

Brighter sky used. Still a hell sky though ;D

More lights added.

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-9.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-10.jpg[/lvlshot]

Download

[AEon]

Getting better...

• You don't actually need to add an additional texture in the water area to get down to the water JP. Just vertically expand the water texture you use for the rest of the pool. This also helps avoid the weird texture "overdraw" you currently have.
• I'd actually place a JP texture (like your others) in that water pit, to give the player a better hint that there is a JP here. I also halve the depth of that JP pit. Having to dive to get JP'ed s a bit bothersome, IMO.
• When in the water, about to go up the stairs to the RG, your lowest step requires a jump, blocking "natural" movement. Either create another step in water or add an invisible playerclip step, so that you can simply walk out of the water to get the RG.
• The water seems to originate from under the RG steps, I'd create a dark empty area right under the lowest step (simply make it less high). This way the water could actually come from under the steps.
• Note: One of your JP brushes has the JP texture on *all* sides.
• From the RG, moving down the steps towards the MH, on the right side there is another such step than cannot be overcome, expect by jumping. Add another step there to avoid this.
• The pit of death, is a tricky one to get to the RA... not so sure about this...
• At the PG, looking into the map, the stairs on the left seem to have a caulk texture near the wall that lets you look into the "skybox", the stairs on the right, at the upper end have texture z-fighting near the top-most steps on the wall.
• Using the pool JP is a bit weird, because you can only get *out* of the pool if you actually jump towards the RG. Might be better to lower the MH, and to the JP destination point, to be able to jump to 3 of the possible 4 directions one level up.
• Top level, try to pull up your walls, adding some high columns and some "fake" top level details. Presently the map looks quite cut off on the top end.
• Hehe... I like your planks ... not really needed technically but they look nice.

[Silicone_Milk]

I've been having issues with the water overdraw (even though all faces are slapped with nodraw except for the external faces)

The reason I don't use a single solid water brush is because the physics of the water prevents the jump pad in the hole from actually shooting you more than a foot above the water.

Hole was originally half its depth but I doubled it to make it seem more... hole-ish. Reverted back to original depth and it feels better. Still can't get the bots to use it though =\

The water was going to fall down the stairs from a mystery source up above the wall but I like the idea of a half circle grate under the stairs like a gutter.

RG Stairs fixed. Nice catch

GL and PG swapped. Z-fighting fixed on the stairs. Mystery caulked face fixed.

Modified the PG area and the RL balcony a little bit. Trying to get the bots to use that area but they like to gather near the shotgun and railgun.

Moved RA to the ledge you can only get to by jumping down in to the Pit O' Death. Should give players more incentive to risk jumping down there.

Haven't messed with wall height yet or the "cut off look". Saving that for beta for now.

The planks heh. Thanks.

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-11.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-12.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-13.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-14.jpg[/lvlshot]

Download

[AEon]

Played against Gorre, Daemia, Anarki on Hardcore.

• 

• The bots seems to be totally obsessed with the RG. I guess it is too easy to get. You planks made me thing you might create another column, near the RL, in the middle of the room, with one plant leading to that column's top, with the RG on it.
• The RL could move where the RG was. Presently the bots don't give a hoot about the RL... strange.
• You might want to switch the GL and PG (again?)...
• The left flank of the MH (facing the RG) still has two steps that are too high to walk up, on in the water coming from the steps, one nearby. The bots cannot get out of the water, presently. Well Daemia couldn't.
• GTKradiant (at least v1.2.13) has a Pitomatic... you will need to use it for your pit, the bots and the player can fall into the pit and do not die. You might want to make the pit twice as deep, to be able to trigger falling damage "screams".
• Please create an .arena file that lets tester run the map with bots from the menu. This way it is easier to test / optimize the map for the bots. IMO, 3 bots work well.
• I'd also add more health, presently there is not much of it in the map.
• Souther part of the map, is rather large and empty b), as sketched try placing some walls here, to make the area more interesting and to make the area smaller, if you will.
• The 5H and 5A in a) is a nice idea, but frustrating, because you cannot follow the norther wall's edge, and you cannot jump form the northern ledge to the southern one either. You have to go back to the JP.

[Silicone_Milk]

Suggestion B.) was something I actually wanted to do but didn't have time to alter this morning as I was running late for my chem exam. I'll make it happen in the next alpha. Glad to see you think the same as well.

That pit is funky man. I think there needs to be one or two more pits to make that seem like it isn't out of place in the map. I think I have a good spot for one.

I was going to create an arena file just to have a long name for the map but never got around to it. Didn't even think about the benefit to the testers. I'll get on that right now.

A) is going to get fiddled with to fix that issue with the ledges.

I didn't want the GL where the PG currently is because I wanted to discourage camping that balcony and spamming nades. The PG does seem a bit out of place there though. I'll re-swap and see how that feels.

Daemia is the only one I've seen that fails to get up that step lol. Hardcore mode and tested with Bones, Orbb, Mynx, Xaero, Doom, Phobos, Bitterman, Anarki, Klesk, and Sarge. Don't know what her problem is but I'll fix that since those steps are kinda funky.

Thanks again for the feedback.

I'm curious to here from others as well *hint hint*

[Silicone_Milk]

Implemented some changes. Added .arena file.

I'm thinking about gutting the basement area and making a semi-circular bigass pit o death with the railgun on a center platform, moving the rocket launcher to where the railgun is, and putting the shotgun where the rocket launcher is.

That basement area is too empty as it is.

Anyways, here's the latest alpha.

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-15.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-16.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-17.jpg[/lvlshot]


DOWNLOAD

[AEon]

Some thoughts:

• One of the planks between the 5H and 5A near the GL actually stuck *in* the geometry z-Fighting.
• IMO, the RG idea works well, maybe make the column a but larger, to give it more "umph" (visual imparct);). You might not need 3 planks though, one, slightly wider would do too.
• I am not quite sure about the closed off wall between the RG and the SG. Presently you have to take the stairs to get into the central arena via RG... hmmm...
• Your bots are very effective in this map, Orbb that little runt, keeps slaughtering me with the PG. And I think the RL on the stairs work, and the placement of the GL should be fine as well.
• The main issue the map has presently, IMO, is the lower level. Ideas that might help:
  • Place an important weapon down here. I wanted to suggest either the RL or the PG, but you could add an LG here near on the normal path with the 5Hs there.
  • The gimmick with the RA in the window frame of the pit of death is, OK, but less useful than it could be. I'd put the RA on one of the stepping stones in the water. You could "cheat" by adding some botclip from the floor area to those stepping stones to get the bots to pick up the RA.
  • Add at least one 50H down here, better two spread out, this way folks that want health will *have* to jump into the pit to get health upped.
  • I'd build a nice platform for the pool JP, and a bridge to it, to skip all the weird water pit issues, and to make things easier for the bots.
• I am still thinking the map can be condensed a *lot*. Not sure if you'd want to do this, but if you want you could PM me the .map source, and I'd try and sketch out how the map could be made more compact. If not, that's also fine, I'll try to draw it on a screenshot sometime.
• E.g. the area around the RL stairs is still too large, and you can see too far, i.e. in the direction of the pit. With the RG you really get hit badly around the RL. Looking from the RL to the MH, the stairs on the right (you fixed the steps there), IMO the path is too wide, it might be interesting to move the whole GL/5H item corridor path more towards the center of the map.

[Silicone_Milk]

Changed *a lot* of stuff.

Items have been moved around quite a bit.

New "routes".

Existing routes lost 64 units in width (at least).

Lower level redone a bit. Bots are smart enough to actually make use of what I put in

I'd rather not release the .map source until beta because I'm ashamed of my lack of mitering and brutal overdraw.

Aware of some planks cutting in to geometry. Not going to sweat it until beta.

Fixed known z-fighting. Not going to worry about the rest that may exist until beta.

I'm feeling pretty good about what I've got going on now. The mega health jump kind of feels like a thorn in my map's ass so I may actually gut it and do something a bit different....

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-18.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-19.jpg[/lvlshot]

DOWNLOAD

I should probably keep the download link at the first post in this thread to keep things more organized....

[AEon]

Goes to show the difference between the suggestion giver and the mapper with the vision. Your changes really surprised me. I like them, gives the map a much more professional look than the cut-off top area version before. The new paths and slimmer pathing also works better. The stairs to the RA now fit much better, IMO.

• Near the pad where the 4xammo + 50H reside, and one JP and also the region b) (in the screenshot further up), you have a ledge high along the wall. That ledge is actually pretty cool, and reminds me of q3dm6 upper ledge to the RG. You might like to make that ledge 3 times as wide, then add a JP to the left of b) to get up there, to then place something special at the end of the the ledge up there. Maybe the RG or an LG, or even the RA, or if you are going to go wild, the Quad .
• The 2x25H on the pads north of b), require a jump to get them. This might need to be rethought, IMO, a tad annoying.
• New JP in the lower level works, looks OK, IMO. The RG down here is also OK.
• You could angle the stairs next to the SG, by 90° from:

  Code: Select all

  ---------------
  ====          |
  ====   SG     |
  ====          |
  
  to
  
  ---------------
  ====|||       |
  =====||  SG   |
  ======|       |

  Letting you go up the stairs directly from the SG.

Map coming along nicely.

[Silicone_Milk]

noted on the stairs. It felt off but wasn't sure what to do with them.

I'm curious to see how you would have done things differently with the map.

Yeah I thought the ledge was cool too. Was contemplating doing something with it. I could seal up the broken pillar RG area down below and relocate the RG to tighten things up. I think QD would be a little much for this map.

[Silicone_Milk]

Well! I've made some rather large changes yet again.

- alt route to RL opened.
- RA replaced with two YA
- RA on stairs replaced with MH
- JP to MH removed. Regen rests on the platform now.
- Basement tightened.
- RG relocated to "cool ledge"
- LG introduced. PG removed.
- Jump Pad Ramps added for "cool ledge"

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-20.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-21.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-22.jpg[/lvlshot]

DOWNLOAD

[AEon]

Mischievous as I am, a Quad down in the pool would be pretty cool

• Some of the planks are more 2x4 (two by four) but would look better IMO as 1x4 or 1x6, especially those criss-crossing above the path near the GL.
• You'll need to add a weapon down near the pool since, a player spawning there will otherwise be completely defenseless. You might like to place a SG down here, and replace the SG with the PG one level up.
• On entering the map I was telefragged, can it be that map does not have enough PSs (Player Spawns)?
• I like the upper paths, the two AP are fun, location of the RG IMO works and so does that of the RL.
• Not so sure about your red fog of death... plus it shows some weird dark red polygon when I look into the pit. You might like to reuse your spikes here, i.e. showing out of the death fog.
• The rounded wall, near the JP leading to the RL via upper ledge, could use a Ctrl+N (natural texture align for patches).
• The lower pit without the RG stepping stones, IMO, is a good move. Removing the JP there probably as well. Two things you might want to try here though, either you add past the Regen a TP, in the wall you closed off (where the RG used to be). I personally don't like TPs, but here it might really help the folks get *out* of the pit again. Or place a JP into that wall, you would exit through the ceiling, somewhere near the SG.
• All your JPs have a severe case of "over-bounce". Try lowering the JP destination entity by at least 16u, probably even 32u. Don't get me wrong I like a bit of lover-bounce, but presently it is just a bit too much, the player and the bots completely overshoot the to edge of the JPs.
• Your walls are getting higher, you might want to start adding a few lights, e.g. use material from the source file q3dm7. A nice orange/yellow tone might give the map some more ambiance.
• MH on stairs works.

The overall additions to vertical gameplay are starting to make the map more and more interesting, keep this up .

[Silicone_Milk]

Bots suddenly became retarded in the water pit....

working on fixing them (going to try botclip stair trick)

- Fixed the bounce height of the jump pads.
- "Haul Ass" route added to get out of basement. See screenshot.

Yeah what's up with that fog? It's stock fog and I was getting the dark polygon but thought it might just be my videocard acting up. Guess it isn't just me.

Going to make the regen a 50/50 quad/regen spawn. Maybe I'll take a look at skore's electronics manual to rig up a system to ensure that the regen/quad spawns one after another at all times rather than getting 3 regens in a row on rare occasions.

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-23.jpg[/lvlshot]

The "Haul Ass" tunnel is going to be filled with spikes o' doom so players need to actually think about where they're stepping instead of mindlessly hopping in to an insta-escape route.

Will upload later tonight once I fix bots and play with some item tweaks, add spawns, and tune the lights.

[Silicone_Milk]

Had some funny things happen with a target_relay/target_delay circuit to alternate between regen and quad (infinite timer when picked up, instant respawn, and other things on various set ups)

Replaced regen with quad for now. I think I should stack more health in the map now though

Fixed bots dumb behavior. Playing with Mynx, Orbb, and Sarge on Nightmare... they make good use of all the weapons except for the LG. The only bot that likes to go for it at all is Hunter.

But other than that they move about the map quite effectively from the rounds I spectated.

More spawns have been added.

I'm getting very close to declaring alpha finished and moving on to beta. I feel the map is missing a lot though but I can't put my finger on it.

Anyways,
DOWNLOAD

Thanks for all the feedback Aeon and for playing through all the maps even though I've been churning out so many new versions in such a short time. I really appreciate it

[AEon]

Thoughts:

• Interesting AP-JP combination, clever how you use the structure in b) as an exit. But all this still needs quite some work. Please give the pool a proper edge, like on the side towards the MH, that lets the player/bots reach on the AP on the dry. Move the AP right to then water edge. Having to jump onto the AP is, IMO, terrible. The destination entity of the JP needs to be placed higher and less close to the upper edge. Presently when you hit the JP, not using air control, you miss the upper edge and fall into the pit. Pit of death trigger does not seem to completely cover the floor here?
• Might want to try another shader for the PG pit of death... 1. red does not look that pretty, IMO, 2. I have the suspicion that shader is broken. Note quite a few of these id shaders actually *are* broken. IIRC someone went through all of them and fixed them.
• Sarge goes for the LG.
• Still think the SG down where the pool is would help, and the PG up at the SG's place, or the PG down with the pool.
• The 5H / 5A near the pool could be moved away from the wall somewhat, not into the center of the path, just not so close to the wall.

Something to think about... presently all your powerful weapons are pretty far off the trodden path, i.e. away from the med level of the map. This slows down the game because the player has to travel too far to actually get something standard like the RL. For the RG and the LG this is OK, because they should be sought after. But a GL is mostly useless IMO, and the PG is not in the map. The SG and GL on the main med level is just not enough. The map presently is very centered around getting to the top level and staying there, i.e. camp.

A slightly weird idea: To keep players from camping at the RG you might use a trigger that starts to move a huge wall bush out of the wall, pushing the player off the platform. You can reach the RG this way, but cannot stay up there. Never done something like that though.

[Silicone_Milk]

Very interesting points Aeon.

I had intentionally made it so you have to jump for the AP so people couldn't just grab the quad and mindlessly drop off to instant-escape. I'll place that up against the pool though since the bots don't like it unless I put a botroam over the AP and then they like to loop from b to pit to b endlessly if I put so much as a botroam with a weight of 50 down.

I'll move weapons around. I'm not happy with the positioning of the RL it just seems so out of the way to get to.

I'm rebuilding the map since I have some major architectural changes I want to implement and my disregard for proper brushwork is starting to have an impact on the ability to work on the map.

Wasn't a fan of the PG. It's a personal thing though. There's an empty spot where the PG could go...

Interesting idea on the anti-camp wall. Sounds like a job for more Skore Electronic Circuit Hackery. I might get around to playing with that.

I really think you're going to like the changes I have in mind

[Silicone_Milk]

Some previews of the rebuild:

So far I haven't had much time to work on this. Have the main atrium pretty much set up how I want. Going to figure out what to do with the former RL platform.

[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-24.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-25.jpg[/lvlshot]

Basement is being reworked as well.

Adding more 45 degree routes to ease up on the box in a box syndrome.

Going to make more 90 and 180 degree curved stairs in a select few places. Adding a second atrium on a different verticle level.

Taking this opportunity to fix the crazy steep stairs and to tighten the routes more.

[Silicone_Milk]

Still working on it. Been working my ass off for the upcoming Japanese midterm so I haven't had much time to play with the map.

It's pretty much a completely different map now though. Here's some shots of what's going on:

Railgun Room:
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-26.jpg[/lvlshot]

Exit from "plank path" jumppad. Shotgun will be placed here:
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-27.jpg[/lvlshot]

Basement rework w/ Quad (Haul Ass Path kept relatively intact):
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-28.jpg[/lvlshot]

Overall view of the map with levels color coded (clearly unfinished):
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/caldiar/Untitled-29.jpg[/lvlshot]

[fKd]

looking sweet! such a huge improvement after the initial screens, keep up the good work sir

[AEon]

I like the colored editor map shot... glad you are re-making and re-thinking your map. This is probably for the best, because at times one tends to map oneself into a corner, making the decisions that need to be made harder and harder to do. Starting off with a clean slate on the other hand should really help.

You are learning Japanese? Woha... *impressive*

[Silicone_Milk]

thanks guys.

The hardest part I'm dealing with is figuring out a non-lame way to connect the basement to 1st floor. I think I need to raise the basement a few units higher to make it easier (it *is* rather deep)

Need to add a few 3rd level areas too. Going to split this in to its own thread since it's evolved in to something different.

And yeah, Japanese isn't as bad as I thought it'd be