Return to the Entryway (TabD2Map01)

[Tabun]

Edit, Update 2:
Final released and set to LvL.

---

Edit, Update:
Beta2 is done. I've updated this message with new screenshots and a new download link.

Updates:

• Aesthetics. Lots of tweaks. Map shouldn't look as bland now.
• Now has two versions: "tabd2map01" is the Q3A-geared item layout, "tabd2map01_pure" is the original Doom II layout.
• "Starting" platform no longer (easily) jumpable.
• Button timings adjusted and global sound (for alerting anyone opening the outer door) added.
• A lot more botclipping added and bots now get the PG in the _pure version.

Since I'm a new face here I'll just briefly tell you where I'm coming from, before I'll spam my work.
I've mostly been active in the game-modding scene as a 2d & 3d artist for Wirehead Studios' Generations Arena (which I'm deviously plugging here, because too few people know about it, and it's a neat project and still not dead -- http://www.wireheadstudios.org). Not really an active gamer, though I play some Q3A/QL now and then -- I just enjoy tinkering. Obviously I haven't been active on these forums, but I've been reading them long before the admins were kind enough to allow me to register .
I hope I picked up on some good mapping habits, but this is my first Q3A map (did some Q2 mapping back in the day, but nothing really worth mentioning), so any and all feedback is very much welcome.
I'm using GTKradiant 1.5 and the accompanying q3map2 version.


Screenshots




(Click to enlarge)

About the map

For those who didn't recognize it: this is a remake of Doom II's first map, the Entryway. It's a fairly faithful take, so the layout pretty much sucks. I know this, but the nostalgic function is #1 here.

I guess I'm calling this "beta2", though I don't know (and don't really care) if that's the proper tag for it.


Download

tabd2map01_beta2.zip (10 Mb)
Map name is "tabd2map01" and "tabd2map01_pure".

Music file (not official or anything): tabd2map01_music.zip (20 Mb)


Questions

Aside from probably needing the usual tips on mapping, I have some trouble with mapping that I'm looking to get some help with:

• (a) The whole map is on the grid and (somewhat) sensibly laid out that way, but it's rather too large. So I scale it down to 0.75 times the actual size before compiling. It would be better matched to the original Doom II map's dimensions if I could scale it to 0.7 times. That way it would still allow jumps without one hitting one's head, etc. Problem is, if I do an Arbitrary scale on the whole map at 0.7, the map goes off grid (logically) and somehow patches get disconnected from brushwork, resulting in cracks or z-fighting wherever curves are used. Is there a way to prevent this and still get it to that size? (now given up on)
• (b) I'm getting the infamous black lines in the skybox. Using -skyfix doesn't really help (for me), but should I use it anyway? Or have I missed some better way to get rid of them? (known, using ioQuake for screenshots)
• (c) I'm also getting some "CM_GridPlane unresolvable" errors . I've understood that they're mostly harmless. If that isn't true, how do I get rid of them? (no response on this, just have to accept this?)

[AEon]

Quick note... looking into everything in more detail presently.

You can and should completely delete these empty folders in your pk3:

• Code: Select all

  tabd2map01_beta1.pk3\baseq3
  tabd2map01_beta1.pk3\tabd2map01
  tabd2map01_beta1.pk3\tabd2map01_lun
  tabd2map01_beta1.pk3\tabd2map01_lun3dm4

Update:

... scale it down to 0.75 times the actual size before compiling. ...

That is a really evil thing to do, you may have lucked out here, if everything was on grid and boxy enough... but usually scaling a complete map is asking for trouble. I doubt your brushes and patches are actually still on grid. Once they are off grid you can basically rebuild everything because any changes will lead to cracks/gaps. It would probably be better to find out what size you want, and then re-build to that size... hmmm... from my quick test things seem to "look" OK, but when you change something this will a problem.

I'm getting the infamous black lines in the skybox.

Nothing you can do about it, I take it you have a ATi graphics card, right?

Comments on the map:

• Drat I had not properly read the map inspiration, and had hoped this was the e1m1 of Doom, I really loved *that* map
• As you said there are problems with using a old SP map for MP in Q3A. The path is linear, the pads e.g. the one for the PG (plasma) is too high for a bot. The 3 weapons at the start kinda needs to change, and the BFG in the map is generally not a good idea for Q3A.
  
  Question: Does it have to be a faithful "port" of the map? If not I'd keep all you have done and then add new "Doomish" paths, and optimize the map for bots.
• Map looks good for your first Q3A map, IMO, some areas are actually really nice (like the stairs in the starting area, or the room with the PG, and the cool sky).
• But things like step heights are "visually" too high to look nice, IMO.
• Those switches are interesting (never done that before), but in DM these are mostly annoying and hinder the gameflow, IMO.

So, I am not really sure what could be suggested, if the layout is "locked" to the original, there is not really much to change her then.

[obsidian]

I like that it looks nostalgically like the original while enhancing some of the detail for a much more modern look. If I ever become a millionaire, I'm building the front hall of my mansion with those triangle stairs and twin pillars.

However, I think you could do with a bit more artistic freedom with something like this by adding additional details. In particular, the outdoor areas look equally bland as the original and I feel you could really spruce it up while still staying faithful to the original concept. Try expanding the skyline of those buildings and build some additional structures up to break up the roofline. id Software had technical limitations for those even lines, you don't.

Fantastic job otherwise in an interesting looking map. I wish some imps would spawn behind a closed door and scratch my face out before I paint the walls with their guts.

[Tabun]

Thanks for the comments!

Empty folders deleted, hadn't seen those in winzip, but winrar did the trick.

I'm scaling down only before every compile. Before I do any editing, I undo that manipulation. It's certainly impossible to edit the map properly after it's scaled down -- but I'm not even thinking of trying to do that. :] Unfortunately, not even the temporary scaling works when scaling to 0.7 times.

I'm pretty much going for 'faithful' here, yes. Instead of adding new Doomish areas, I'd prefer to just do another map, Doom-themed but with an entirely new layout. That's for another time, perhaps..

I think I'll do one "purist" version, where switches need to be used and the item layout is like Doom II -- and one more playable version that starts with all doors starting open. In the latter, I hope to do a different item layout. But I guess I'll worry about aesthetics first.

Speaking of which I'll be sure to take another look at the outdoors areas.

[v1l3]

Instead of adding new Doomish areas, I'd prefer to just do another map, Doom-themed but with an entirely new layout.

You should try out d1e1m1(the Hangar), I've seen it remade by a couple of other mappers, and one of them was good....plus it can be made to be more connective than this one.
I really like this one though also...definitely as good as amphetamine's version. It's a bit too dark though.

[fKd]

not bad, not bad at all, good job man!

[dichtfux]

I'm getting the infamous black lines in the skybox.

Nothing you can do about it, I take it you have a ATi graphics card, right?

That bug was fixed in ioquake3.

[InsaneKid]

if ur good in mathematics,
u can also re-scale the whole map ...
i do that often!

@aeon >>>

Doom1-style:


Doom3-style:

[InsaneKid]

i always pushed enter to activate the buttons!- i love it!
(i was buildin my D1-versions while watchin the map on PSX.)

about the lights: just try to set some "highlights"! <:

the lifts in the SG-room should lift up again, after u have pushed the wrong button!
and the rocket-Cabin should be a secret! <:

i would also place a BFG behind the window at exit (make the hallway complete).

[Tabun]

New beta version out for testing and feedback.
First post updated to reflect changes and new screenshots posted.

Download
tabd2map01_beta2.zip (10 Mb)
Map name is "tabd2map01" and "tabd2map01_pure".

Insanekid:
I don't know why I would add another BFG to a map already oversaturated with BFGs, especially since they're only in there for purist reasons. The default version has changed, anyway, so there are no BFGs in the (hopefully) more playable item distribution--any comments on item placement should concern that version, not the "_pure" version.. :]

[Tabun]

Bumping to see if there are really no further comments on the updated version.
If not, all good, and I can send it off to lvl.

[AEon]

Presently I think the pure version plays a bit better because the heath is better placed.

Since your default version has a certain level of "liberty", here some radical ideas for a "remake", I know are not going to happen, but it was fun coming up with them :

• 

• • Downsize the two outside areas, using the red line as an outer limit, just cutting down the amount grass or acid water.
  • In the starting area, to the left of the stairs create door to the acid, put a walkway into the "flat" acid, to keep the player safe. Acid area open up the other wall leading the the main outdoors.
  • Enlarge the exit room, connect it with the ante-chamber to the RL.
  • Cut out a significant chunk of the blue room, to make it smaller.
  • BG in grass outdoors, LG in acid area.

OK, enough fun... on the non-pure layout... that could IMO be slightly changed compared to your pure version, not just weapons:

• Personally I liked the large amount of 5H in the RL ante-chamber. The 3x5H are not enough health, IMO... place 2x25H additionally.
• Placing the health next to the weapons, IMO, is not so good, better to place them in corners of the map, and in the main corridors (near one of the walls).
• Not so sure about the GL placement... SG here may be better, and the GL in the blue room.
• Add more player respawns, especially in the outdoor area.
• Add at least one SG and some other weapon, e.g. the RG in the outdoor area. Presently the outdoor area with the Regen and RA is useless, you don't live long enough to get there . This would start outdoor fights as well.
• For the un-pure version I'd keep the door to the outside open, always.
• SP start area, let the player get up there again, with some clipping.
• Add one more step to the steps were the PG resides, this way the player can actually look out of the window.
• I like the stone step deco outdoors... more of that, maybe some broken down ruins (basically just some tattered walls), would help take cover outdoors plus look nice.
• A few areas are still very dark, e.g. SP starting area (with the stairs) and the PG room.
• Love the wood work on the ceiling the the PG room BTW.

I should stop wanting to meddle with maps that are not my own... sorry

[Tabun]

Hehe, no apologies necessary. I understand where you're coming from, anyway.

I've made some final adjustments and called it quits. The map is nostalgic and plays somewhat decently now -- better in Generations Arena than in normal Q3, by the way.

Sent off to LvL.

Thanks for the feedback people!