Q3 map 'q3_ultrav' beta

[speaker]

Note added on March 3, 2008: The map is now available at Lvl (at present in the map queue). The location specified previously is now invalid (but the MAP file is still there).

Hi,

This map is a remake of the excellent Quake map 'ultrav' by Escher. I have made a few changes to the original layout and rearranged the location of weapons and armors. Also I omitted the quad (it would give too much advantage on this map).

It is a small map with an Egyptian theme. Game play is fast, there is no place to hide. Bots are able to get all items and navigate all areas. Please, test the map and let me know your opinion.

BTW, I am little tired of mapping (made three maps in the last two months). So, I must have a break. I will continue in March. I plan to do more conversions (Quake maps and the best levels of UT). See you then!

Downloads:
MAP http://menczel.extra.hu/q3_ultrav_map.zip

[corsair]

I can recall several games played on that map in quakeworld - most of the time massive ffa slaughterfests
I'm downloading it, looks fancy - one comment though, just so you know; In order to remove the score in your screenshots, open up the console and type "/cg_draw2d 0".

Thanks for sharing it with us, happy mapping ^^

[foralarx2k3]

I love the original of this map and I've seriously played it to death and back in Q1, Q2 and Q3, having picked up a great conversion of it along time ago made by slomoe. The texture set on this version is much crisper than slowmoe's though, that's as much as I can really say on your version so far, speaker. I'll pop back later tonight (4.30 pm here currently) and provide a much more detailed feedback for you, the provisor being you realise any comments I provide are my own opinion, and you should not act on them unless you personally feel they would not deter from making the map how you intended it. bbl.

FoRa!

[v1l3]

Nice map! I've never played the original version so..no comments there, but the textures are also really great looking. I'm a fan of egyptian styled maps and this one is very original from the others that are out. The only thing that is not working right are the bots....as when they spawn in on some of the spawnpoints they get stuck at the spawnpoint and can't move. I can't remember what that's called when that happens. I played against two bots in FFA and they got stuck like 6 or 7 times during the match. Very nice work though.
You say UT maps That'll be nice to see in the future..it'd be cool if your thinking on doing some of the original version maps. DM-Cursed, ut9turbine, TheDeck, stalwart(small version), rankin, Morbias, HealPod, and Hyperblast have been done already. It'd be nice to see some of the others.

[speaker]

Hi,

Thanks for the comments. Most of the textures have been created by others (although I have modified many of them to fit my map better). I used some Egyptian textures from UT, photos collected from the net, and the texture pack 'soegypt' for Quake by Sock. I did not realize at that time that Sock made a conversion of his/her (?) texture pack for Q3A. It could have saved me a lot of time FYI the Q3 version can be downloaded from http://www.simonoc.com/pages/materials/ ... /index.htm, I just found it.

@corsair: Thanks for the tip (cg_draw2d 0), I will use it next time.

@v1l3: Could you, please, tell me which spawn points caused the trouble with bots? Maybe I can move them a bit or change something around them to prevent the problem. BTW, I had some difficulties getting the bots navigate properly. They don't like this map for some reason

@foralarx2k3: I was not aware that a conversion of ultrav existed. Just as well, I might have decided to not make another. Could you, please, tell me where I could pick up slomoe's version?

I would like to avoid repeating the work of others. So, here is the list of Quake and UT maps I intend to convert. If any of you is aware of conversion(s) of these maps, please, let me know.

Quake:

aggressr, dead, efdm5, efdm7, efdm8, efdm10, fsdm3, kjdm3, spinev2, strafin3, strafin4, ztndm5, ztndm6, odd2

UT:

agio, agony, axon, baluba, bloodflowers, malevolence, morpheus, phobos, pressure, tempest, codex, zeto

[foralarx2k3]

Ok, I promised I'd post some feedback of your map. Before I start, please remember as stated before hand, these are my own personal opinions, take what you will from them or disregard them completely, at the end of the day this is your map and I am just one voice. Many others will see things different to me. Bear with and read all of this .. I have good things to say as well as bad. .. get a coffee though it's a long one

That out of the way..... I downloaded you map with an air of aprehension (remember I said I really have played this map to death and back... I wasn't kidding). In my travels I've come across three other versions of this map .. two were straight BSP2MAP rips .. the other was Slomoe's .. the map was originally only available on fileplanet and never got submitted to lvlworld, but a quick check reveals it's no longer on fileplanet but I did find a link to the pk3 for you...here.

The original maps name is Ultra-Volience for those that don't know the map and the map is small, tight and totally overloaded with 3 RL's, 2 SG's, 1LG, 1YA, 2RAs and a quad to boot.. hence the name Ultra-Volience. When I first played slowmoes map I could not believe how well slomoe had caught the essance of the map. The biggest let down was the texture set which given at the release time of the map, the first true Q3 egyptian texture sets were still some time away in the making (Sock's and Mr Clean's), looked like they had been ripped from an earlier engined version of the Q series, and hence didn't look anywhere near as sharp as the textures you've used here. The textures on your map are far better, but unfortunately that for me is where yours ends.

Don't get me wrong here, your version is not all bad, it's just, for me, slowmoe's captures the intensity of the original far better. I going to stop comparing your map to slowmoes or the original from this point on, with the exception of one major gripe. In the original map and in the Q2 version I had way back and Slowmoe's map. The jump from the RL to RA, what would be the RL to the PG above the doors to the RA teleporter on your map, is acheivable and yet still a big risk. If you don't get it right you clip the edge of the wall on the RA side (pg on your map) and land in the area below. In your map the jump isn't even vaguely possible without the aid of a weapon. This is because in your version of the map the scale is slightly larger on the horizontal and this is reflected by the much bigger side rooms, allowing more room to dance. It's just not quite Ultra-Volience which is a great pitty, just like in my eyes my first remake, Reckless Aboundment is no Reckless Abounden (Match1). Your's suffers from the same issue as my map in that it's slightly too big horizontally.

From here on in I'm going to talk about your map in it's own right and what is (in my eyes good and bad in it).

First the bad, cause I like to end on the good stuff.

a) The teleporters are too low and they stop the flow of the map as I bang my head on the arch above the teleporters .. very annoying when you are chasing down someone.
b) The doors to the RA are a little too slow in opening in my eyes. Also I think they'd work better if they opened as a pair rather than singularly.
c) The bot issue that Vile mention needs sorting.
d) The steps on the corner that goes past the yellow armour and round to the top ledge for the GL really need, in my eyes some attention. All too many times I found my self bumping into the step going round the corner and totally losing all my speed there when coming up from the RL ledge.
e) The speed of the lift up to the RL in my eyes is a little to slow and needs a boost to improve flow. Might be an idea to go with a JP instead.
f) The map (and your others for that matter) needs a levelshot ... I like to see what I'm about to spawn into

And now the good.

a) The extra space on the map and your decision to include the RG has made for a much more slower and tactical type of game play. It's no bad thing here and works well.
b) I love the teleporter exits they look awesome.
c) In general I think the choice of item placement you have works well on your map and I can't think of anything that's worth the effort to move it.
d) As stated I like the choice of texturing and the lighting in the map is good as well.

In general I like the map, it's hard not to, as it's like visiting an old friend you haven't seen in a while and they aren't quite how you remember them. A good effort, well done. Others are going to like this I can tell. I'll look forward to seeing more from you in the future and I'd be happy to help out on testing of layouts as I've played a fair few of those maps you've mentioned.

Sidenote:- I'm not sure it's possible to reproduce Morpheus or Phobos as they have dual gravity settings and you can't do that in Q3 as far as I know. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though :P

FoRa!

[speaker]

@foralarx2k3:

Thanks for the thorough review of my map, I do appreciate your effort and I agree with most of your comments.

The map is indeed not a faithful recreation of the original. So, it may be a disappointment for those who played the original. I have tested Slomoe's version, and you are right: it looks and plays exactly as the Quake version, a very good job. I just hope that players not familiar with the original will find my version enjoyable. BTW, I had similar feelings when I played the map 'cpm22' which is apparently a remake of 'aerowalk'.

I think that the problems you mentioned as 'bad things' can all be corrected, I will post an improved beta 2 in a few days.

The door leading to the teleport to get the RA is intentionally slow. You have to expose yourself to fire from above for a longer time if you want to get the RA. I tried to make it a triggered door as in the original, but the stupid bots never used it (but still crowded around the trigger button and pushed it repeatedly), so I had to use a simpler setup. Is there a way to delay door opening (so that the door opens fast but not immediately)?

The railgun: I have included it (instead of a third RL) because the RL is less powerful in Q3 (far too slow IMO). You can use the RG quite effectively in the central open space, but camping is impossible (you will get someone with a RL behind you in two seconds ).

About the jump between the RL and RA (PG): I was not aware that it was possible at all. I tried it a couple of times and could never make it. What is the trick?

As for levelshots: I included the directory 'levelshots' in the PK3 with some pictures in it, but I just realized that there should be exactly one picture with a name identical to the name of the map (I am still learning Q3 mapping ). I will correct the problem in the next release.

Thanks for your offer to test the layout of my future conversions. I will contact you when I have something to test.

[foralarx2k3]

@foralarx2k3:
Thanks for the thorough review of my map, I do appreciate your effort and I agree with most of your comments.

You're most welcome.

The map is indeed not a faithful recreation of the original. So, it may be a disappointment for those who played the original. I have tested Slomoe's version, and you are right: it looks and plays exactly as the Quake version, a very good job. I just hope that players not familiar with the original will find my version enjoyable. BTW, I had similar feelings when I played the map 'cpm22' which is apparently a remake of 'aerowalk'.

I don't think you will have to many issues there, like I said it's a good map and most will find the additional space to dance a welcome breath of fresh air. I have to admit I was disappointed with CPM22 as well. I felt hubaeroq3 was a much more superior remake. Still my understanding is that hubster wanted to have an offical CPM version and that meant pleasing Preacher (the original map authoer), as Preacher simply was not happy about the realease of hubaeroq3 and refused to give it his approval. If you ever decide to contact the original author and ask for approval on any of your remakes you should bare that in mind.

I think that the problems you mentioned as 'bad things' can all be corrected, I will post an improved beta 2 in a few days.

That's very kind of you, I appreciate your efforts but please if you fill something is right don't go changing it to please just one person.

The door leading to the teleport to get the RA is intentionally slow. You have to expose yourself to fire from above for a longer time if you want to get the RA. I tried to make it a triggered door as in the original, but the stupid bots never used it (but still crowded around the trigger button and pushed it repeatedly), so I had to use a simpler setup. Is there a way to delay door opening (so that the door opens fast but not immediately)?

I'm not sure about the delay, I don't think so, but other more experienced mappers might know a trick for it. Your explanation for the speed is pretty good and valid, though on reflection so don't waste a lot of time on that.

The railgun: I have included it (instead of a third RL) because the RL is less powerful in Q3 (far too slow IMO). You can use the RG quite effectively in the central open space, but camping is impossible (you will get someone with a RL behind you in two seconds ).

Agreed as I said in my positive comments it works well on your version.

About the jump between the RL and RA (PG): I was not aware that it was possible at all. I tried it a couple of times and could never make it. What is the trick?

It possibly the same trick as the jump up the ledge to the mega health ledge from the YA in Q3DM13. I'm guessing you haven't had huge exposure to Q3 so it's all to do with your com_maxfps setting. In Q3 there is an error in the rounding calculation, meaning at certain FPS settings you are able to jump slightly higher. See this post I made some time back here for futher info.. Also I knocked up a quick avi showing the jump on slomoes map here

As for levelshots: I included the directory 'levelshots' in the PK3 with some pictures in it, but I just realized that there should be exactly one picture with a name identical to the name of the map (I am still learning Q3 mapping ). I will correct the problem in the next release.

No worries glad you worked it out.

Thanks for your offer to test the layout of my future conversions. I will contact you when I have something to test.

Look forward to hearing from you.

FoRa!

[speaker]

Hi,

I have done the modifications suggested by foralarx2k3, so the second beta version of 'q3_ultrav' is ready. Download location is specified in the starting post above, the archives have been updated.

BTW, bot problems were caused by botclips obscuring some entities. I added the clips _after_ the entities and did not check their relative positions (entities were filtered out at that time). Stupid mistake

@foralarx2k3:
Thanks for the jump trick demo, I will check it out. I have heard/read about the com_maxfps bug.

I'm glad you raised the point of approval by the original author, since this matter worries me a bit. I know that some authors forbid using their maps as a base for new creation. However, IMO remaking a map for an _other_ game from scratch (not by ripping the original BSP) should be OK. It is like recreating a program (e.g. Excel) by coding everything yourself from nil w/o looking at the source code of the original. Also, its is sometimes rather difficult to contact the author (only an alias name is known, email address invalid by now, etc.). So what is proper conduct according to the mapping community?

[pjw]

So what is proper conduct according to the mapping community?

I don't really speak for the mapping community, but I'll offer my opinion.
There's nothing whatsoever wrong with remakes (as long as they aren't bsp-to-map hack jobs, and yours obviously isn't). I made a Q3 remake of a great Q2 map by Than myself, once upon a time.

That being said, I would make a serious, serious effort to get in touch with the original author. It's really just about common courtesy. In fact, I would have contacted the original author first, and gotten the go-ahead before starting the project, just in case they end up being a douche about it...

The mapping community is pretty deep and far-reaching; I'm sure if you post on a few forums and ask around, you can probably make contact with the original author. Whatever the result, if you decide to release the map, make it very clear (in the map.txt, in any forum posts, in any remarks about the map whatsoever) that it's a remake, and mention the original map and author by name.

Just my $0.02.

[foralarx2k3]

There's nothing whatsoever wrong with remakes (as long as they aren't bsp-to-map hack jobs, and yours obviously isn't).

Whatever the result, if you decide to release the map, make it very clear (in the map.txt, in any forum posts, in any remarks about the map whatsoever) that it's a remake, and mention the original map and author by name.

I have to echo both those sentiments entirely. And the readmes in my PK3s for both remakes definately state and acknowledge this.

That being said, I would make a serious, serious effort to get in touch with the original author. It's really just about common courtesy.

Hmmm, this is a hard one, I'm going to be quite open here and say, I'm guilty of having not done this, mainly because I never saw either ID or ZTN concerned with me releasing remakes of maps for what is essentially an old game that has a very limited audience that they both moved on from along time ago. That doesn't make my actions right though.

............................................................

Anyways we're supposed to be discussing this map...

a) The teleporters are too low and they stop the flow of the map as I bang my head on the arch above the teleporters .. very annoying when you are chasing down someone.
b) The doors to the RA are a little too slow in opening in my eyes. Also I think they'd work better if they opened as a pair rather than singularly.
c) The bot issue that Vile mention needs sorting.
d) The steps on the corner that goes past the yellow armour and round to the top ledge for the GL really need, in my eyes some attention. All too many times I found my self bumping into the step going round the corner and totally losing all my speed there when coming up from the RL ledge.
e) The speed of the lift up to the RL in my eyes is a little to slow and needs a boost to improve flow. Might be an idea to go with a JP instead.
f) The map (and your others for that matter) needs a levelshot ... I like to see what I'm about to spawn into

Looks like the new version just about covers and addresses all of those. I think your pretty much set there chap

FoRa!

[pjw]

I'm guilty of having not done this, mainly because I never saw either ID or ZTN concerned with me releasing remakes of maps for what is essentially an old game that has a very limited audience that they both moved on from along time ago.

I should have been more clear. If you're remaking one of the official maps (for any game) that was released with the game, I'd say good luck--go for it. If you're remaking a stand-alone map that a private individual made after the game was released, that's when you should communicate.

Why the distinction? Well...hmmn...I suppose, in my mind, if I'm making a map for release with a game, it's usually not going to be "my map" anyway, since it's a team process and the map usually goes through a lot of revisions based on a lot of input from different sources. There's often a lot more personal investment in a custom add-on map though.

[speaker]

@pjw: Thanks for your 2 cents I will try to contact the original authors as you advised.

@foralarx2k3: I'm glad you think the problems have been adequately addressed. So I consider the beta 2 as final and will submit it to LVL. I have checked out your maps, I like the conversion of 'The Rage' (not the Q3 version, it is a bit too dark for my taste). I am going to include it to the map rotation on my server. I remember playing many good games on that one way back when Q2 ruled.

Another awkward problem of mine: I used the prefix 'spk3' for the names of my maps because my game alias is Speaker. Yesterday I found out that this prefix is already used by a mapper called 'spike-'. Any suggestions? The prefixes 'abc' and 'xyz' appear to be unused (at least I could find neither 'abcdm1' nor 'xyzdm1' by Google), but these are not very attractive choices to say the least. And I would rather not use 'xxx' although I guess it is also available

[pjw]

How about just "speakerdmX"? Nothing says it has to be three letters...

[speaker]

I have done another Google search and the prefix 'spk' appears to be free. Anyway, the number '3' is superfluous because I never released maps for Quake or Quake 2. Also I decided to call my converted maps q3_xxx (where 'xxx' is the original name) to avoid misunderstandings. I'm going to rename my previous releases (spk3dm1 and spk3dm2) accordingly. The prefix 'speaker' would also be fine, but it is a bit long. I guess most players hate to type long map names in the dark (I do)