[Q3A] (FFA) - SMDM01_A2 :: "Kibbles N' Bits"

[Silicone_Milk]

Copied and pasted straight to the LEM forum of Q3A for even more feedback -

This is the first map for Quake 3... well any game really, that I'm actually seeing through to the end. I know, it's amazing. SM actually finishing something he starts.

Anyways!

I'm posting this up here for the following feedback:
- Health/Armor placement. (I can't seem to find good places)
- Weapon/ammo placement (lacking on the ammo I know. But where should I stick them?)
- Flow. (any odd spaces that should be opened/closed up?

The map comes with bot support.

If you see the black/white missing texture grid that's fine. Those are just reminders for me to put in detail things like pipes and whatnot in its place.

The Screens:





THE DOWNLOAD:
http://files.filefront.com/smdm01+a2zip ... einfo.html

[obsidian]

I assume this is a copy-paste from Mapcenter/Levelmakers since we don't have a beta section and this is hardly a new site?

From the screenshots, it looks to be a bit large, but that's just a quick observation. I'll see if I can download it sometime (I'm on the wrong computer right now) and give it a run-through.

[Silicone_Milk]

indeed it is. There's not much activity on levelmakers right now so I wanted to bring it over here to get feedback as well.

Thanks Obsidian. I appreciate it

(Ill edit the first post since the beginning paragraph looks kind of stupid when pointed out)

[corsair]

just had a quick run through it (10 mins, doom and sarge @ hardcore, /r_gamma 2 :P).

first off (non gameplay) : you uploaded a pk3 file - its more usual to zip the pk3 so that one can extract it to the baseq3 folder (and so one can 'open file' when click on the dl, rather than 'save as').

Secondly, I too thought it was abit large judging from the first shot, However when playing it I think it's okay like this, its a nice size, for FFA that is. What gametype are you aiming at?

I also didnt see any health and armor items, which is quite odd. A tip for item placement; testing is the key, just stuff a lot of items in the map, and see whether there are too many or too few, whether you have to walk too short a distance or too much to improve your health/armor, and especialy, see if you have to actualy move to all spaces in the map to get the most important items.

for now, I discovered the Rocket launcher pretty late - and due to the size of the map, I didn't really need it because of the railgun. I guess you could switch places of the grenade/rocket/rail gun to get a less rail dominated mid. (You could also place some huge ass pillars in the mid of the main atrium to counter it)

Theres also an invisible floor close to your teleporter area, didnt know what to think of that :P (want to get glass there or so?)

The slime pit doesnt have a trigger hurt in it.

Actualy, the whole area around the slime pit, and the teleporter, they dont seem to have much contact with the rest of the map, in other words, its pretty isolated. Maybe get open it up a bit so you get more connections going on. (you might also want to ditch the teleport, because in my opinion, a map with only one teleport is rather odd. there should be 0 or a bunch. (could be that I missed some, tho)

I also wanted to jump from the rail gun platform to the height where the grenade launcher is placed - it has its good side that its not possible, but I think it'd be nice if there's a tough jump that would allow a player to do this.

Somewhere in the lower section of the map, you've got a jumppad that shoots the player only 128 units high or so - maybe add stairs, a ramp or an alternative way to get up there, so the player doesnt have to get up by using such a dangerous thing as a jumppad really is.

Anyway, I like the overal layout, but it needs some altering so it offers more possibilities, its pretty straight forward right now.

Nice going, good luck with the following versions.

[Silicone_Milk]

Wow that's quite the feedback Corsair

I was originally aiming for 1v1 FFA (when this map was much smaller) but I decided to expand upon the map and make it in to a 3-4 player FFA type map.

I left a lot of armor and health out right now to just get a feel for weapons to see how bots would behave. I'm torn about where to put the items but I guess I'll just toss a bunch in then start removing where funky

I think the big pillars idea is nice because it could lead to some interesting architecture but I also think it might crowd the main atrium too much. I'm thinking about putting the Rocket Launcher where the Grenade Launcher is and sticking the Grenade Launcher at the Railgun point then putting Railgun in the RL nook. I'll give it a try to see how it pans out.

Hmm... didn't know about the invisible floor. Probably a result of when I was blocking out the map in caulk. I'll probably stick a grate floor there and have some fx down below if I keep the area in the map.

Concerning the slime pit/teleporter area I too also got a disconnected feeling for it. Bots didnt like it. I didn't like it and the way the map is built doesnt make you flow into the area. Rather, you tend to run in the opposite direction.
I was thinking about opening a hall from the top of spiral stairs to the backside of teleporter so you could drop down but that would be funky. Removing that area would probably be the best option.

Ill see about adding a tricky jump to get to the GL height. Sounds like an interesting idea.

I had originally intended to stick an armor or something where that jumppad is and not have a way to get up to the next level (you were forced to go down the stairs) so it was kind of a dead end. I felt the area at the bottom of the stairs needed more routes though so I put in a jump pad. Maybe the elusive lift can make an appearance here.

Thanks for the great feedback Corsair. It's been a real help and I'm going to start making some new changes right now.

[obsidian]

wviperw's Competitive Level Design Guide should be a good read if you need a few suggestive thoughts on item placement and gameplay.

Link above was working until a minute ago, but mirror here:
http://www.goodstuffmaynard.com/portfol ... index.html

[Silicone_Milk]

an interesting read. Thank you Obsidian. It has some good points that I should try out.

[obsidian]

I would start placing the armors really early on in the layout process, since a good player can really control a map by holding them. The idea is that you want large items to be placed relatively far apart so they don't become too dominating.

I don't like dead ends and the PG and SG areas seem a bit closed off, you have to deviate to get them and then run back. For the "down" player, he has to grab these relatively low value items and risks getting trapped with nowhere to run. Maybe think of another route for the player to get out of there.

It's still rather dark even for an alpha, you might want to toss some lights in the downstairs area just so I know where I'm going.

I'm not sure if I like the RG and GL up top, placing guns like those on their strong points promotes spamming and camping. You'll have to make it a bit harder, like corsair suggested, by placing some sort of cover up to prevent it from being too overpowering.

Limit open bouncepads, either change them for stairs (if they're short) or give the player using them some cover.

Anyway, it's a good start and the size actually feels pretty good. Still needs a bit more flow, cover, and better weapon placement.

[Silicone_Milk]

We have an update.

Thanks to the feedback received so far

-Moved a weapon or two around.
-Opened up a couple new paths.
-Removed slime/teleport area. It added nothing but empty space to the map.
-Added cover to a jump pad.
-More connectivity. Eliminated all dead ends.
-More health.
-More armor.
-A tad more ammo.
-Moved some spawn points around.

Screens of the Update:





Download:
http://files.filefront.com/smdm01+a2zip ... einfo.html


*NOTE: Having some doubts about Rocket Launcher placement (maybe swap with railgun)
Also, thinking about having Yellow Armor sit on the ledge in main atrium that is below GL and unreachable unless you drop down from GL ledge or squeeze between the architecture.

[Silicone_Milk]

We have yet another update! Woohoo.

This is my last update for its infancy stages. The next update will be a full fledged beta with fancy detail and whatnot. Right now I'm just hoping that if you guys find any glaring bugs/oddities, etc that you can point them out to me. The one thing that bothers me is that it's actually kind of awkward to get to the very bottom level. (have to drop down)

Thanks to feedback here and feedback gathered at levelmakers.com, I have done a bit of change.

THE UPDATES:
- more health. Quite a bit more actually
- more armor. (a red armor occupies the empty bottom floor area with the jumppad now. Forced to drop down to grab it however with the spawn move this area doesnt gain as much attention....)
- Weapon Swap (Railgun is now downstairs where the PG was)
- Higher Connectivity (The "PG" room has another path leading to the lift in the middle of the lower floor area) (Back hallway that looped behind main jumppad is removed)
- moved spawn points around again. They feel better.
- added three powerups to the map: Mega Health, Quad Damage, and Regeneration (spawn one at a time). I'm still doubtful about this addition but survey digs it apparently.
- Bots behave a bit better. (they were camping the vis block on main atrium. Now they like to explore)

THE SCREENS:
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... 0011-3.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... 0012-4.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... 0013-1.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... 0014-3.jpg[/lvlshot]
[lvlshot]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... 0015-1.jpg[/lvlshot]

THE DOWNLOAD:
http://files.filefront.com/smdm01+a2zip ... einfo.html