lol, Damn dirty Aussies

[Nightshade]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007 ... htm?csp=34

The country known for kangaroos and crocodile wrestlers is one of the world's worst polluters, at least on a per-capita basis.

Knock it off already, ya pollutin' dingo molesters.

[scared?]

they also seem to be a fascist police state now as well...

[Turbine]

http://www.usatoday.com

[seremtan]

Labor lawmaker Peter Garrett, former lead singer for the rock band Midnight Oil

lol, i wondered what happened to them

He and President Bush released a joint statement Wednesday calling for a long-term program to reduce emissions "consistent with economic growth, poverty alleviation and improvements in living standards." They emphasized the use of technology and nuclear power and didn't mention energy taxes or mandates on industry.

hm, i wonder if one of the reasons euro environmentalists knock bush's position on global warming is because he brings up their dirty little secret: namely, that the kyoto-based approach to the issue condemns people in the third world to endless poverty and lack of development (i.e. the very things that will make them most most vulnerable to the effects of climate change)

[Grudge]

Labor lawmaker Peter Garrett, former lead singer for the rock band Midnight Oil

lol, i wondered what happened to them

He and President Bush released a joint statement Wednesday calling for a long-term program to reduce emissions "consistent with economic growth, poverty alleviation and improvements in living standards." They emphasized the use of technology and nuclear power and didn't mention energy taxes or mandates on industry.

hm, i wonder if one of the reasons euro environmentalists knock bush's position on global warming is because he brings up their dirty little secret: namely, that the kyoto-based approach to the issue condemns people in the third world to endless poverty and lack of development (i.e. the very things that will make them most most vulnerable to the effects of climate change)

Yeah, because making sure everyone in the third world can buy a car is a good thing, that will help both them and us in the long run.

[seremtan]

so you agree with the idea that third worlders should stay poor so you can drive yours?

[Grudge]

No

[seremtan]

oh, not be poor, but not own cars either

[Grudge]

Right.

Our current standard of living isn't sustainable even for the aging and diminishing population of the western industrialized world. How would that be sustainable for the huge, young and growing population of the third world?

The only reason we are able to live the way we do right now is because we are digging up and using up non-renewable resources as fast as we possibly can. When they run out (or more correct, when they become too expensive to continue digging up), we need to re-evaluate our lifestyle, and think of a better (albeit in our current view, "poorer") way of life.

It's nothing really controversial about that, it's just that most people choose to ignore it, because it creates some really uncomfortable moral dilemmas. Especially for people with kids who are going to grow up in a world with access to much less resources than the one we're pretty busy sucking dry right now.

[ek]

cart your arse on it mate ey

[seremtan]

Right.

Our current standard of living isn't sustainable even for the aging and diminishing population of the western industrialized world. How would that be sustainable for the huge, young and growing population of the third world?

The only reason we are able to live the way we do right now is because we are digging up and using up non-renewable resources as fast as we possibly can. When they run out (or more correct, when they become too expensive to continue digging up), we need to re-evaluate our lifestyle, and think of a better (albeit in our current view, "poorer") way of life.

It's nothing really controversial about that, it's just that most people choose to ignore it, because it creates some really uncomfortable moral dilemmas. Especially for people with kids who are going to grow up in a world with access to much less resources than the one we're pretty busy sucking dry right now.

do you even understand what a resource is? a thing is only a resource (from our perspective, at least) because we use it for something. until we started using oil, it wasn't a resource, it was just black sludge in the ground. when we stop using it - for whatever reason - it will cease to be a resource. in other words: *we* create resources through our ingenuity. this is something all the "z0mg we're sucking teh planet dry!!!11" people never seem to get

also, just because our current lifestyles involve a lot of oil doesn't mean that oil is either necessary or sufficient for the maintenance of those lifestyles. we'll just create another set of resources and move on

[Massive Quasars]

seremtan is largely correct. It's the products of our science and technology that will save us, not crippling economic sanctions or extreme conservation measures (though modest conservation schemes probably have their place).

do you even understand what a resource is? a thing is only a resource (from our perspective, at least) because we use it for something. until we started using oil, it wasn't a resource, it was just black sludge in the ground. when we stop using it - for whatever reason - it will cease to be a resource. in other words: *we* create resources through our ingenuity. this is something all the "z0mg we're sucking teh planet dry!!!11" people never seem to get

also, just because our current lifestyles involve a lot of oil doesn't mean that oil is either necessary or sufficient for the maintenance of those lifestyles. we'll just create another set of resources and move on

Quoted for truth. The last sentence is more of an open question, physical law allows us to delve much further in pursuit of potential resources, but human ingenuity doesn't guarantee we'll take advantage of that in the time frame we might be contemplating (likely as it may seem).

[Grudge]

Sure, energy is all we really need in the end and that we can get plenty of from the sun, but we're not quite at the level of a Class I Civilization yet, and we won't be for at least 30-50 years yet

At the moment, the biggest issue is cost. Fossile fuels are extremely cheap, and once they run out there is a higher cost associated with their replacement. Plus, the cost of commodities like iron, copper and other, rarer metals are steadily rising. And those are finite resources (mining the moon or asteroids is still just sci-fi). And all of those plastics we use, what are they made of? That's right, oil.

I don't think we'll "run out" of any of these resources anytime soon, but they'll eventually become too expensive (as I said above) to be able to cater for our meat-eating, SUV-driving suburban lifestyle.

[Doombrain]

I remember reading somewhere if the rest of the world lived like us in Europe we would need another 3 earths to sustain us and if we lived like the septic tanks we would require another 11 – 13 earths.
Wish I could remember where I saw this for reference.

[Grudge]

Quoted for truth. The last sentence is more of an open question, physical law allows us to delve much further in pursuit of potential resources, but human ingenuity doesn't guarantee we'll take advantage of that in the time frame we might be contemplating (likely as it may seem).

Exactly, there is a possibility that we will experience a situation where one or two generations of people in the western world will actually be forced to live "poorer" than we do now, for example not be able to eat meat or fish as often as we do, drive a car as much as we do, buy as much clothes and electronics etc etc, until we get our priorities right and the technology in place to move on.

What many people don't realize is that even renewable resources are limited. Biological resources such as for example fish, is only replenished at a fixed maximum rate (there is only that much room in the sea). Right now, we are using it up faster than it is "produced", which means that the resource is diminishing, which in turn means that it's replenished even slower.

Sure, the resource can be used much more effectively (directly as human food, instead of ground up and served as high protein fodder for cattle for example), but it's still limited. And as long as it's used up faster than it regenerates we're basically fucked.

[glossy]

It's because we're on top, and we 've got all the babes.

Now lay down your weapons and give us your beer.

[Ryoki]

A catastrophic collapse of our lifestyle is (at the moment) not only imminent, but will come sooner than most people think. Almost every oildig on the planet has peaked production... Even the middle eastern countries, who have resorted to screwing around with their numbers to keep the price down and production up. And demand is soaring with China and India eager to join the party. It's only a matter of time now.

Either mankind finds out how to replace oil with something else in less than 10 years, or we prepare for generation after generation of resource wars, the first of which have already begun.

[hate]

biggest gay population too rt?

mmmm dirty gays...