an interresting read on early american history

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Pext
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an interresting read on early american history

Post by Pext »

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Chumash/Population.html

it's about the pre-columbian america. the main statement is that at this time, there lived more people in the americas than in europe (112 millions vs. 50 millions) . furthermore the reason europe could take foot on the 'new' continent was not technical advantage but simply the indian weakness to european diseases.

some quotes:

Faced with such stories, historians have long wondered how many people lived in the Americas at the time of contact. "Debated since Columbus attempted a partial census on Hispaniola in 1496," William Denevan has written, this "remains one of the great inquiries of history." (In 1976 Denevan assembled and edited an entire book on the subject, The Native Population of the Americas in 1492.) The first scholarly estimate of the indigenous population was made in 1910 by James Mooney, a distinguished ethnographer at the Smithsonian Institution. Combing through old documents, he concluded that in 1491 North America had 1.15 million inhabitants. Mooney's glittering reputation ensured that most subsequent researchers accepted his figure uncritically.

That changed in 1966, when Henry F. Dobyns published "Estimating Aboriginal American Population: An Appraisal of Techniques With a New Hemispheric Estimate," in the journal Current Anthropology. Despite the carefully neutral title, his argument was thunderous, its impact long-lasting. In the view of James Wilson, the author of The Earth Shall Weep (1998), a history of indigenous Americans, Dobyns's colleagues "are still struggling to get out of the crater that paper left in anthropology." Not only anthropologists were affected. Dobyns's estimate proved to be one of the opening rounds in today's culture wars.

...


Smallpox was only the first epidemic. Typhus (probably) in 1546, influenza and smallpox together in 1558, smallpox again in 1589, diphtheria in 1614, measles in 1618—all ravaged the remains of Incan culture. Dobyns was the first social scientist to piece together this awful picture, and he naturally rushed his findings into print. Hardly anyone paid attention. But Dobyns was already working on a second, related question: If all those people died, how many had been living there to begin with? Before Columbus, Dobyns calculated, the Western Hemisphere held ninety to 112 million people. Another way of saying this is that in 1491 more people lived in the Americas than in Europe.

His argument was simple but horrific. It is well known that Native Americans had no experience with many European diseases and were therefore immunologically unprepared—"virgin soil," in the metaphor of epidemiologists. What Dobyns realized was that such diseases could have swept from the coastlines initially visited by Europeans to inland areas controlled by Indians who had never seen a white person. The first whites to explore many parts of the Americas may therefore have encountered places that were already depopulated. Indeed, Dobyns argued, they must have done so.

...


Back home in the Americas, Indian agriculture long sustained some of the world's largest cities. The Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán dazzled Hernán Cortés in 1519; it was bigger than Paris, Europe's greatest metropolis. The Spaniards gawped like hayseeds at the wide streets, ornately carved buildings, and markets bright with goods from hundreds of miles away. They had never before seen a city with botanical gardens, for the excellent reason that none existed in Europe. The same novelty attended the force of a thousand men that kept the crowded streets immaculate. (Streets that weren't ankle-deep in sewage! The conquistadors had never heard of such a thing.) Central America was not the only locus of prosperity. Thousands of miles north, John Smith, of Pocahontas fame, visited Massachusetts in 1614, before it was emptied by disease, and declared that the land was "so planted with Gardens and Corne fields, and so well inhabited with a goodly, strong and well proportioned people ... [that] I would rather live here than any where."
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Foo
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Post by Foo »

It's a pretty huge 'maybe' to state that the disease killed X many unnacounted for people and therefore the population must have been X.
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Post by stocktroll »

as i remember from college there is a huge range of how many indians there were with with 100+ million being the improbable high extreme of that range
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Post by Foo »

To put that in perspective, that's about 1/3rd of the US population today. With all the big cities and dense housing districts. We're talking about a population which was largely nomadic at the time, also.

It just doesn't fit within the realms of likelyhood.
Pext
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Post by Pext »

Foo wrote:To put that in perspective, that's about 1/3rd of the US population today. With all the big cities and dense housing districts. We're talking about a population which was largely nomadic at the time, also.

It just doesn't fit within the realms of likelyhood.
the 112 million are estimates for both south and north america.

if the thesis was true, the 'nomadic' thing would be object to further discussion. as said in the article, the depopularisation due to diseases allready took place even before settlers reached the indian settlements / cities.
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Post by Freakaloin »

Image
a defining attribute of a government is that it has a monopoly on the legitimate exercise of violence...
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Post by tnf »

Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" - a great history of about everything.
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Post by Transient »

Read "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen if you're interested in stuff like this. I wish I had reaad the book before I graduated high school; I would have been a major thorn in the side of my History teacher. :icon32:
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Post by tnf »

Transient wrote:Read "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen if you're interested in stuff like this. I wish I had reaad the book before I graduated high school; I would have been a major thorn in the side of my History teacher. :icon32:
Yea, but some of those books (not the one you are referring to) arm students with misinformation that they come back to school with thinking they will be that thorn. For example, I've got kids who said they were going to bring me "proof" that evolution never happened. They came back with a printed list called "10 questions to ask your biology teacher about evolution" which were supposed to all point to major holes in the theory. They don't. I can't tell you how many kids have brought copies of "Darwin's Black Box" to school also.

But as you stated, it would be nice to confront some of the revisionist history that is taught in the public school system - no doubt about it.
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Post by Transient »

Yeah, I can see that happening. Loewen has in-text citations after nearly every sentence (a few of which I checked out), though, so it seems like he's covered his bases for just that purpose. :icon14:

Have you read "Lies"?

edit: I do have to admit that my teacher didn't really go all from the book, in his defense. He had a more unique approach. He was one of my favorite teachers in one of my least favorite subjects. Interestingly enough, now that I think about it, all of my favorite teachers taught subjects I hated in high school... Hmm...
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Post by Guest »

lol that's so funny. I hope they mentioned HOW all these indians got these diseases to begin with?

I forget exactly how it went but it's something along these lines.

White men figured out indians get sick pretty easy, infest blankets with diseases, I beleive the techniques was leaving the blankets lying around a bunch of dead horses or something like that...

Yeah anyway they gave all the infested shit to indians, of course they got sick! I even heard so far as them catapulting dead horses into the villages, kindof a biological warfare to get things started for America. What else is new eh? :olo:
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Post by Ryoki »

Kracus wrote:I even heard so far as them catapulting dead horses into the villages, kindof a biological warfare to get things started for America. What else is new eh? :olo:
That was the Mongolians, in China. Or Russia, can't remember. Probably Russia, those poor bastards are never lucky.

EDIT: oh yah, they used the plague. And not horses, but dead soldiers or live enemy prisoners.
Last edited by Ryoki on Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Guest »

Might have been the spaniards now that I think about it, doing it to the mayans, err or incas.. I forget.
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Post by Ryoki »

Not very likely Kracus, they'd given up on catapults as siege weapons by that time. You know, with the invention of gunpowder.
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losCHUNK
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Post by losCHUNK »

corpses were being catapulted into castles and cities when king arthurs horny grandma was in nappies
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Post by Guest »

Yeah but can you shoot a fucking horse into a fortified village?
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Post by Guest »

losCHUNK wrote:corpses were being catapulted into castles and cities when king arthurs horny grandma was in nappies
True, I'm just pretty sure they were doing it during the early parts of colonizations, especialy in south america.
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Post by Ryoki »

Kracus wrote:Yeah but can you shoot a fucking horse into a fortified village?
Goddamn it's annoying how you so often completely miss the point.

EDIT:

- horses don't transmit human disease (quickly)
- they had no catapults
- the Mongolian thing sounds incredibly familiar doesn't it. Except that one was actually documentated.

IE you are confused.
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Post by losCHUNK »

yea

and why would they catapult a dead horse into a village?

its like, hey theres a dead horse in our village.... this has never happened before !!!!!!1!!11

now put it in a castle, where all the entrances and exits are blocked, i can understand.... but it aint like someone in a village will go... hey a dead horse, might get us all sick and even kill us

but im going to leave it there anyway
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Post by Guest »

Ryoki wrote:
Kracus wrote:Yeah but can you shoot a fucking horse into a fortified village?
Goddamn it's annoying how you so often completely miss the point.

EDIT:

- horses don't transmit human disease (quickly)
- they had no catapults
- the Mongolian thing sounds incredibly familiar doesn't it. Except that one was actually documentated.

IE you are confused.
I didn't miss your point at all. I'm just saying if you're going to siege a fortified area you're usualy going to toss large objects at them, and by this point they knew about biological warfare. And I just googled it and did see a few articles about catapulting bodies into inca cities so perhaps it wasn't horses (or maybe some places it was who really knows? ) but they definitely did use that tactic against them. In mutiple fashions which was my original point about the disease thing.

Not neccessarily how they did it but the fact that they use it as somekind of non war statistic. Like dying of a disease isn't our fault... we just won't metion we gave it to them... :dork: So I think you're missing my point.

And Chunk yeah I know what you mean but obviously they don't just catapult 1 dead horse, you would be talking like a hundred or so... not so easy to clean up and not really healthy overall after a couple days.
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Post by Ryoki »

...care to post some links then?

Wikipedia mentions several biowarfare incidents in south america at that time, but none like you discribe.
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Post by Guest »

I actualy couldn't read the whole article cause it was a pdf and I don't have it installed. I should be able to find it again though.
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Post by Guest »

http://www.utmj.org/issues/80.1/Historical.pdf

Can't open the PDF though so I didn't actualy read the whole thing, just got like a summary.
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Post by Ryoki »

It's basically the same stuff that was in the wikipedia article i linked.
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Post by andyman »

Foo wrote:To put that in perspective, that's about 1/3rd of the US population today. With all the big cities and dense housing districts. We're talking about a population which was largely nomadic at the time, also.

It just doesn't fit within the realms of likelyhood.
but you have to remember that we really dont know shit about anything.
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