Quake3World

There is always something to argue about.
We will never quit arguing.

I was hoping you'd say that.

Eraser wrote:I see a terrace of a restaurant as part of the restaurant. The primary purpose of the terrace is to provide space for people to enjoy their meal. Smoking on the terrace has a serious impact on my ability to enjoy my meal. It should be banned.
If you're a smoker and you want a smoke, move yourself off the premise of the terrace.

Look, I'm not even complaining about people smoking on train stations, bus stops or while waiting in line at an amusement park. All those things are completely disgusting as well, but I would really draw the line at restaurant terraces.

For some reason, smokers really don't have any idea about how disgusting (second hand) smoke is. It's just as bad as if I'd sit right in front of you and start screaming at you for no good reason. No one would like that either. It's really funny that you say "Jesus, the gall of it", because smokers seem to have this feeling of entitlement. I guess this is in part due to them not realizing how disgusting their habit really is. But it's really strange to me that it should be OK for anyone to cause a serious nuisance to other people.

It sounds to me like you expect folks to not do something that they're quite simply allowed to do. There isn't a single rule against it, so basically it's tough titty for you sir. How about you move yourself of the premise of the terrace if you think it's so disgusting? Noone's forcing you to be there.

I could easily reverse your reasoning of entitlement by the way, but i'm in a generous mood so i won't.

No smoking on restaurant patios here in Toronto and this pleases me. Second hand smoke kills yo.

I feel i should clarify such a policy would be fine by me, i only take issue with expecting others to change their behaviour when the perceived offense is not actually against any rule whatsoever.

Eraser wrote:

losCHUNK wrote:The switch to e-cigs may cause a feeling of being victorious, worth of a proverbial pat on the back which might just indefinitely delay completely kicking the habit.

The rest of your post I can put down to arseholes but this part I disagree with strongly, I don't know any smoker that has a victorious feeling when it comes to smoking or ecigs and imo ecigs have done a lot more to get people that I know off the fags than anything else I have come across. The majority of my mates have made and stuck to the switch so I think they're a great idea. I have never heard of anyone saying they've quit smoking whilst they vape, it's always "I've switched to the vape".

The issue with smoking on patios or whatever - that issue has been around for a while and has nothing to do with ecigs. IMO that should be left up to the owners BUT health/hygeine ratings should include environmental conditions.

I also really didn't anticipate a hatred towards vapers, when people first started using them I thought it found a good middle ground. Obviously not

HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:Second hand smoke kills yo.

No it doesn't... Look into it moron....

Err ?

Hell.. I'll do it for ya u gullible dipshits...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfishe ... 124d6d623f

Geoff's wife seems like the type that would vape...

scared? wrote:Hell.. I'll do it for ya u gullible dipshits...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfishe ... 124d6d623f

Oh ok, hardly proof though in the face of other papers ?

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the U.S. National Toxicology Program, the U.S. Surgeon General, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer have all classified secondhand smoke as a known human carcinogen (a cancer-causing agent) (1, 3, 5, 7).

http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/caus ... fact-sheet

scared? wrote:

HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:Second hand smoke kills yo.

No it doesn't... Look into it moron....

you are so fucking stupid it defies belief sometimes.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statist ... h_effects/

Ryoki wrote:If you don't want to inhale secondhand smoke when on a terrace you're free to go and sit inside. Why you would think it's okay to complain is beyond me, for the exact reason you've kindly already written down; where the hell else should they go? The terrace isn't yours just because you ordered food you know. I'm a quit smoker and i've never (not once) encountered anyone who complained about that, but i'd certainly tell you to fuck right off. Jesus, the gall of it!

It would make more sense complaining about the bastard two stroke engine scooters driving past the terrace...

They shouldn't smoke on a terrace because it's fucking disgusting, stinks like dogshit and makes the people there who actually aren't inconsiderate cunts, sick. Tell me where you're having dinner next and I'll go take a massive dump under your table and if you complain about it tell you that you're free to go sit elsewhere, because that's what it's like being near a smoker, except smelling a turd doesn't have the added bonus of giving you cancer.

I'm sorry to hear this upsets you so much, but your analogy is unsound. There's actually rules against taking a massive shit under someone's table, whereas (at least where we live) there's no rules against smoking on a terrace. One could even say smoking is actually encouraged by placing ashtrays and so on on tables outside.

Not all is lost however, a consumer always has the power to vote with his wallet - might i suggest if you feel this way you simply go elsewhere? The loss of your patronage will surely make any terrace quickly think up strict anti smoking rules to win back your loyalty. Until such a time please accept that your point of view is just that, a point of view.

Allow me to explain with a metaphore of my own: there's people here with scooters, and i could fucking kill every last one of them for being two of these three: overweight, a genuine fucking moron or an antisocial personality asshole. Do i curse at them when i see them? Fuck yeah. Do i ask them if they'd kindly fuck off? Shit no, my goverment stupidly allows their presence on my bikepath, what am i going to do, assault them? Course not.

Rules aside it's the stench and rudeness of the smoking act that equals the taking a dump example - they're both gross, they both stink, they both ruin an innocent party's experience.

Anyway smoking is banned here already in such places. I'm just venting because I hate the cunts.

Ryoki wrote:I feel i should clarify such a policy would be fine by me, i only take issue with expecting others to change their behaviour when the perceived offense is not actually against any rule whatsoever.

What kind of nonsense is that? Just because there isn't a law against something doesn't mean you can't think it shouldn't be allowed.
I know that when it comes down to it, there's no legal grounds for me to demand a smoker to smoke somewhere else, but I'm not talking about the legal side of things. I'm talking about being a decent human being and not stinking up the place where people eat.

Having said that, it required legislation to get people to stop smoking in the office. It also required legislation to stop people from smoking inside a restaurant. If smokers cannot consider the well-being of others and just have to be cunts and stink up the whole place, then maybe it is indeed time to introduce legislation that bans smoking on patios and terraces as well.

Ryoki wrote:Allow me to explain with a metaphore of my own: there's people here with scooters, and i could fucking kill every last one of them for being two of these three: overweight, a genuine fucking moron or an antisocial personality asshole. Do i curse at them when i see them? Fuck yeah. Do i ask them if they'd kindly fuck off? Shit no, my goverment stupidly allows their presence on my bikepath, what am i going to do, assault them? Course not.

I'm not disagreeing on the scooter thing, but I think a major difference is that the scooter thing is being a quantifiable annoyance for only a very short moment of time. No more than seconds, probably. When going out for dinner and spending 2 hours on a patio while left and right people are continually smoking exposes you to that annoyance for 2 hours straight. Also, when I'm riding my bike I'm doing something practical. It's not something I specifically planned out and spent money on. It's not something I do for the experience. So when I encounter an annoying scooter rider, that's annoying but doesn't prevent my in achieving my goals: getting to where I need to be. However, if I'm going out for dinner and my whole evening is stinked up by cigarette smoke, then that prevents me from getting the enjoyment I was there for in the first place.

This place has turned into daytime TV

Did so 10 years ago

Eraser wrote:What kind of nonsense is that? Just because there isn't a law against something doesn't mean you can't think it shouldn't be allowed.
I know that when it comes down to it, there's no legal grounds for me to demand a smoker to smoke somewhere else, but I'm not talking about the legal side of things. I'm talking about being a decent human being and not stinking up the place where people eat.

Did i say you can't think it shouldn't be allowed? I'm saying you can't expect people to change their behaviour if there are no rules against it - they won't.

Eraser wrote:Having said that, it required legislation to get people to stop smoking in the office. It also required legislation to stop people from smoking inside a restaurant. If smokers cannot consider the well-being of others and just have to be cunts and stink up the whole place, then maybe it is indeed time to introduce legislation that bans smoking on patios and terraces as well.

Yes! That's exactly what i'm on about - christ i'm glad we sorted this out, had the feeling we were totally miscommunicating here. I trust from now you'll keep your snide comments to yourself on terraces until you have an actual reason to start such a conversation with someone, ie when there's rules against it.

Eraser wrote: I'm not disagreeing on the scooter thing, but I think a major difference is that the scooter thing is being a quantifiable annoyance for only a very short moment of time. No more than seconds, probably. When going out for dinner and spending 2 hours on a patio while left and right people are continually smoking exposes you to that annoyance for 2 hours straight. Also, when I'm riding my bike I'm doing something practical. It's not something I specifically planned out and spent money on. It's not something I do for the experience. So when I encounter an annoying scooter rider, that's annoying but doesn't prevent my in achieving my goals: getting to where I need to be. However, if I'm going out for dinner and my whole evening is stinked up by cigarette smoke, then that prevents me from getting the enjoyment I was there for in the first place.

Scooters are actually a major problem in big crowded cities - you speak of this as someone who drives a car mostly. Trust me, they should all be killed immediately - err, i mean, there should be strict rules against them. Bit short in my time atm otherwise i'd write down all the reasons why i hate them, there's like 27.

Ryoki wrote:Did i say you can't think it shouldn't be allowed? I'm saying you can't expect people to change their behaviour if there are no rules against it - they won't.

Yeah I think that's true. But that's a failure of compassion on the side of the smoker. Legislation shouldn't be necessary, but I realize the truth is that if you want to change things like these, it is a necessity.

Ryoki wrote:I trust from now you'll keep your snide comments to yourself on terraces until you have an actual reason to start such a conversation with someone, ie when there's rules against it.

First of all, I never said anything about "snide comments". I mentioned "politely asking them", which you turned into something else.
Also, like I said before, it's nonsense to say there must be a legal basis for requesting a favor of someone. If I ask a smoker if (s)he would be so kind to put down the cigarette, then that's a normal request. The smoker can either agree to do so or not. If the smoker doesn't and continues smoking, then, in my eyes, that makes him/her a selfish cunt. After my request, the smoker knows he's being annoying towards someone else. If the choice is then to continue doing what you do, knowing you are being a nuisance, then yeah, in my book, you're a cunt, even though there's no law against being one.

Right. I look forward to discussing this some more because jesus, i disagree so much, but it'll have to wait a bit - busy evening planned...

Ryoki wrote:Scooters are actually a major problem in big crowded cities - you speak of this as someone who drives a car mostly. Trust me, they should all be killed immediately - err, i mean, there should be strict rules against them. Bit short in my time atm otherwise i'd write down all the reasons why i hate them, there's like 27.

I believe you. No need for that.
I commute to my work on my bike daily. Not through streets like the city center of Amsterdam though, but I recognize they can be a problem. And I don't disagree when you say there should be rules against them. There's quite a few other examples I wish there were rules against but which simply aren't there.
The thing is that the problem with smokers is relatively easy to solve. Easier than the scooter problem I'm afraid.