What's your view on Venezuela and Chavez?

[seremtan]

I've just been checking out a few articles on what's been going on in Venezuela with Chavez, prompted by this hilarious BBC piece on Condi Rice's comments on Latin America:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4484215.stm

"Our job has to be as members of this hemisphere to pursue policies that give democracy a chance not just to hold elections but to then actually provide for its people," Ms Rice said.

:lol:

OK, enough comedy. From what I've read it looks like the US problem with Chavez is that he's basically doing a Sandinista - "going his own way" and adopting the "preferential option for the poor". The fact that Venezuela is the world's "No4 oil exporter" according to CNN -

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/amer ... venezuela/

- might have something to do with it. Oh, and apparently the CIA knew about the coup attempt in 2002, and circulated this info around Washington but didn't bother to warn Chavez. Here's the utterly laughable reason:

A CIA spokeswoman contended the agency played no role in the coup and was merely collecting information about political events in Venezuela for top U.S. officials. She said it was up to those officials and not the CIA to determine what to do with the information.

"The CIA was simply doing what it is we do, in terms of analyzing events and providing policy-makers with our best estimate of the events as they unfold," said the spokeswoman, who declined to be named. She added that alerting Chávez to the impending coup "would suggest we would meddle in the affairs of another nation."

:lol:

Anyone care to dissent from the view that there is another attempt underway by the US to step on yet another nation that chooses not to go "the American way"? Is there going to be a repetition of Reagan's state terrorism in the region back in the 80s? GKY? Julios?

Edit: here's a bunch of pretty good articles on Venezuela:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=venez ... afe=images

[Ryoki]

I'm pretty sure the CIA was actually behind that coup attempt, but the whole household style coup (look at some of the former Soviet states and Libanon that had recent revolutions) wasn't perfected yet at the time. It failed because creating the impression that most of the people of Venezuela were behind the revolution wasn't succesful.

As for Chavez, he's a bastard to the rich and a hero to the poor it seems... i haven't quite made my mind up about him either. As far as dictators go he seems to be one of the better ones though. No mass arrests and dissapearings - the same can't be said for some countries the US does have friendly relationships with.

[seremtan]

I'm not sure why you call him a dictator...

President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, first elected in 1998 made democratic history today (Aug 12 2004) in a triumphant defeat of the recall referendum on his Presidency.

The very Constitution that he championed in 1999, that re-elected him in 2000, allows for a mid-term recall referendum for the President’s term in office. After six years in office, in this recall referendum held on Sunday, August 15th, Chavez lead with a 58% majority. Voters clearly exercised their constitutional right to confirm the President in a historic referenda process, never practiced in the history of this hemisphere.

Under the watchful eyes of over six hundred international observers and media scattered throughout the country, a majority of Venezuelan’s prevented their president from being ousted by a coalition opposition led by Accion Democratica (AD) and the Christian Democrats (COPEI), both parties representing the moderate and ultra right. Renowned international election observer delegations from the Carter Center, Organization of American States (OAS), and European Parliamentarians hailed the referendum process as free and fair.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1250

Whatever action the US takes against him will undoubtably be covert, precisely because he ISN'T a dictator. Reagan conducted a terrorist war against Nicaragua because Congress refused permission for more overt action as the Sandinistas were democratically elected. Overthrowing democracies doesn't look good if you plan to lecture the world on democracy every week.

[Ryoki]

Hmm, you're right - he was elected totally democratic and fair.

[Freakaloin]

I'm pretty sure the CIA was actually behind that coup attempt.

ding...

[R00k]

Hmm, you're right - he was elected totally democratic and fair.

Yea that's kinda the whole issue. We're supporting democracy when it suits our interests again.

Chavez is the most popular leader of Venezuela in a long time for the everyday man over there. He is backing away from the IMF and World Bank and trying to care for his people. He is also buying weapons from Russia or China (can't remember which off the top of my head), and making big oil deals with countries other than us as well, because of our mafia-style approach to bargaining.

Obviously, he's got to go like Castro.

[Freakaloin]

castro owns the us...

[blood.angel]

Some hilarious stuff happened in the coup.
A TV channel showed some of the 'Chavez supporters' firing on a crowd of coup supporters. They showed them standing on an overpass firing down towards the road underneath.
Then a day or so later footage from the same incident (same people) but from a different camera angle appeared, and it turned out the whole thing was faked and the street below was totally empty of people.

[Ryoki]

As a sidenote to that weapons deal: the reason for it is that all the current armed forces rifles will be transfered to militia units (basically a whole lot of farmers that are being taught how to shoot as a countermeasure to the 'approaching US invasion').

Now that may sound innocent enough, but it's gonna create a whole lot of armed people who really like Chavez - which may hamper democracy in the long run.

He also has a habit of interupting TV shows with hours long speeches, but that's more funny than a sign of a nasty individual.

[R00k]

As a sidenote to that weapons deal: the reason for it is that all the current armed forces rifles will be transfered to militia units (basically a whole lot of farmers that are being taught how to shoot as a countermeasure to the 'approaching US invasion').

Now that may sound innocent enough, but it's gonna create a whole lot of armed people who really like Chavez - which may hamper democracy in the long run.

He also has a habit of interupting TV shows with hours long speeches, but that's more funny than a sign of a nasty individual.

You mean it's going to create a whole lot of armed people who will be able to fight for whoever they do really like. Just because he gives them guns doesn't mean they are going to support him for life. Which is the exact reason dictators don't like their populace to have guns.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Chavez clearly wants to remove any - as he sees - corrupt organizations that pander to hard-line capitalism and US interests. He has done alot in that respect despite opposition from the established - therefore corrupt - power elite....usually from the oil companies and old goverment officials. From what I know of him he believed that his country was being pilfered by the wealthy elite while everyone else was poorer than shit. He wanted to change that.

Since Chavez has been put into office the poverty level hasn't really improved but he has placed several social programs into being that are aimed to improve the situation. In all fairness, I don't see how someone can improve the quality of life of his countrymen when he's been having to constantly deal with bullshit from US meddling. It seems the US is keeping him "distracted" in long enough stints to disrupt his policy implementations. That's what you get when you don't support the war in Iraq.

The US really should fuck off and leave Central and South America alone. But it can't...because it won't.

[Jackal]

I have a good friend who just did his Poli. Sci. thesis on Chavez. I could probably get a hold of it if you guys are interested.
I got to see this guerilla video of when they essentially kidnapped Chavez. Fucking crazy shit.

[4days]

I have a good friend who just did his Poli. Sci. thesis on Chavez. I could probably get a hold of it if you guys are interested.
I got to see this guerilla video of when they essentially kidnapped Chavez. Fucking crazy shit.

wouldn't mind a read of that if you can get a copy.

might post something that i've actually thought about after work rather than just ranting - but will chuck this in for now because it's sort of relevant.

was in caracas a few years back (just before 9/11 i think, certainly before the cia-sponsored bollocks-up of a coup). there was a big protest about teachers and how much money was given to schools - it was essentially hijacked by a bunch of yanks and their lackeys trying to muckrake about the government.

that's not a conspiracy theory, the buggers were handing out signs and pamphlets that had fuckall to do with the subject of the protest.

obviously people had seen that sort of thing before, because a line quickly formed in the crowd to separate the bussed-in interlopers from the protest, and being white, i got pushed back with them (wasn't protesting, was trying to find somewhere nice for lunch).

could hear the dirty, conniving little bastards talking about their failed plan and what to do differently next time. they had american accents and talked like stroke victims, which makes me think they were probably from a government agency. they claimed to be part of a lefty group against chavez' dodgy human rights record. i stopped listening almost immediately because my bullshit detector had exploded.

[Ryoki]

You mean it's going to create a whole lot of armed people who will be able to fight for whoever they do really like. Just because he gives them guns doesn't mean they are going to support him for life. Which is the exact reason dictators don't like their populace to have guns.

Hmm yeah... my logic was that only people in support of the current administration will be in these militia units, which is something i'm actually not sure about. It just seems to make sense. Anyway, i really do think it's a bad idea to distribute weapons to the people, i can only see negative things resulting from it.

Also Jackal i might be interested in that too. :icon14:

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

This is a really good resource on Venezuela info...

http://www.zmag.org/venezuela_watch.cfm


Before, education was privatized. That’s the neo-liberal, imperialist plan, health systems were privatized, that cannot be, it’s a fundamental human right. Health, education, water, energy, public services, that cannot be given to the voracity of private capital, that denies those rights to the people, that’s the road to savagery, capitalism is savagery.

Every day I’m more convinced, less capitalism and more socialism.

We need to transcend capitalism, but capitalism cannot be transcended from within. Capitalism needs to be transcended via socialism, with equality and justice, that’s the path to transcend the capitalist power.

I’m also convinced that it’s possible to do it in democracy…but watch it, what type of democracy…not the one Mr. Superman wants to impose. ...

History has Vietnam, the Iraqi people resisting the attack and invasion, Revolutionary Cuba forty years later still resisting. Bolivarian Venezuela resisting for already 6 years. North American Imperialism is not invincible. Of course it is important to know that, because there are people around with good intentions who think that it is invincible and we cannot even hit it with rose petals, the Empire can get angry and react.

Goliath is not invincible. That makes it more dangerous, because as it begins to be aware of its weaknesses, it begins to resort to brute force. The assault on Venezuela, utilizing brute force, is a sign of weakness, ideological weakness. ...

-Chavez

[R00k]

You mean it's going to create a whole lot of armed people who will be able to fight for whoever they do really like. Just because he gives them guns doesn't mean they are going to support him for life. Which is the exact reason dictators don't like their populace to have guns.

Hmm yeah... my logic was that only people in support of the current administration will be in these militia units, which is something i'm actually not sure about. It just seems to make sense. Anyway, i really do think it's a bad idea to distribute weapons to the people, i can only see negative things resulting from it.

Also Jackal i might be interested in that too. :icon14:

Look at what we've done to Nicaragua - and they don't supply 1/6 of our country's oil. If I was Chavez, I'd be afraid too.

[Ryoki]

True

EDIT: still, why doesn't he build an alliance with China or the EU instead of Cuba (which is hopelessly isolated) and get himself some proper deterrants (mining all oilfields perhaps, or get a nuke from some depraved ex USSR country).

[R00k]

He's doing that also. He's building alliances with China, Russia and Brazil that I know of already.

[seremtan]

This is a really good resource on Venezuela info...

http://www.zmag.org/venezuela_watch.cfm

Useful stuff indeed, and plenty more comedy of the kind I quoted at the top of this thread:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle ... temID=7434

Nobody can rationally figure out how Cuba is a terrorist threat, especially after the total discrediting of John Bolton's claim in 2002 that Cuba's medical system is a cover for bioterrorism.

:lol:

Rice openly threatened the elected government of Venezuela when she said she wants the OAS to hold accountable "leaders who do not govern democratically, even if they are democratically elected."

:lol: :lol:

O'Grady calls the Cuban doctors "Fidel's foot soldiers" with "the potential for soft indoctrination, a kind of tilling the soil in the poor countryside so that it is ready when political opportunity presents itself as it has in Venezuela of late."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

US govt propaganda would be hilarious if there weren't some dangerous nutjobs who believed it all. Some of this stuff makes the old Iraqi information minister guy under Saddam sound sane. (Remember the guy who said Iraq was going to crush the iinvaders - as a bunch of US tanks rolled by in the background...)

[4days]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4495975.stm

[R00k]

http://rising-hegemon.blogspot.com/2005 ... -piss.html

The U.S. government knew of a plot to oust Venezuela's leftist president, Hugo Chávez, in the weeks before a 2002 military coup that briefly unseated him, newly released CIA documents show, despite White House claims to the contrary a week after the coup.

Yet the United States, which depends on Venezuela for nearly one-sixth of its oil, never warned Chávez, Venezuelan officials said.

The Bush administration has denied it was involved in the coup or knew one was being planned.

"This is substantive evidence that the CIA knew in advance about the coup, and it is clear that this intelligence was distributed to dozens of members of the Bush administration, giving them knowledge of coup plotting," said Peter Kornbluh, a senior analyst at the National Security Archive in Washington, D.C.

However, he said that while the documents show U.S. officials knew a coup was coming, perhaps implying tacit approval, they do not constitute definitive proof the U.S. was involved in ousting Chávez.

The Bush administration and Chávez, a fiery former paratrooper, have clashed repeatedly, with Chávez accusing the United States of backing the coup against him.

The documents were obtained through Freedom of Information Act requests submitted by Eva Golinger, a Long Island attorney and pro-Chávez activist who also is investigating U.S. funding of groups opposed to him.

Chávez was arrested and overthrown April 12, 2002, after military dissidents blamed him for violence at an opposition protest march that left 19 people dead and 300 wounded. He was returned to power two days later.

But the April 6, 2002, CIA document states that "dissident military factions, including some disgruntled senior officers and a group of radical junior officers, are stepping up efforts to organize a coup against President Chávez, possibly as early as this month."

[reefsurfer]

My view?.... hmm.... ....

HEY! look here guys.. a new game demo!!! weeeeee!!

*backs away*

[R00k]

Chavez announces 26% increase in minimum wage. Says he is still not satisfied, but it is an important step.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financia ... _home_down

[dmmh]

i met an venezualan girl at work just now and we definately had something going on

she was definatly over 30, my guess is 34 or so but she didnt bother at all to hide the fact that she was single and dug me.
I didnt ask for her number, because where I work, this is kinda considered un-profesional and I think the same, but I still regret it, wouldve been an awesome weekend :S