phantq3dm2_alpha 2 (3.1.10)

[phantazm11]

If anyone has some spare time, I could use some feedback on my latest dm map. It will be FFA and eventually Team DM.





Download

Thanks in advance.

[Pat Howard]

Hey Phant,

I've only had time to play one game so far, so I'll start with the big stuff. The scale seems way huge. Was this intentional? I don't think the hallways really need to be that wide. All the paths seem to be about the same width too. Let me guess, you designed this layout of graph paper first, right? I run into these types of problems all the time for that reason .

Seemed fun overall. I like really open maps that don't exactly have explicit "rooms". Maybe you could take this idea even further.
-pat

[phantazm11]

Thanks for taking a look Pat. Yeah, the hallways were made extra wide. This was done to incorporate wall details later on in the detailing process.

Come to think about it...aren't the hallways in QL's Quarantine kind of on the big side?

[Foo]

Come to think about it...aren't the hallways in QL's Quarantine kind of on the big side?

Yes, but they're far fewer in total and the interconnections are much higher. You're right though, it may feel quite different when it's fleshed out. At the mo though it feels like there's a bit too much raw distance to cover one end to the other.

Anyways other stuff:

* The MH room is just open and flat, since the slime is all grated off. I kinda like the grating in front of the MH... but make me jump to get the mh?
* You have a general issue with connectivity in the large semicircular area with the YA and RL. There's connectivity between floors but not enough on each floor, it's just a long, dead corridor. Either needs compressing down or maybe a way out halfway round the walkway?


* Exit from the teleporter slaps you into a wall. players heading this way will want to be going towards the RL, or exiting via one of the top corridors. So shove them out facing straight down one of the corridors and let them do a swift left jump if they want the RL/other exit.

* TP in the Mh room may be better in the gap between the rocket launcher platform, and the ledge that leads to the YA. Also again, if that's moved you can trim some dead space here.


* The top corridor between the large semicircle room with the YA and RL, and the red armour, is super dull. It's a straight 1-1 link with no interaction between floors, no items, nothing to do. May want to bore straight down between this and the lower corridor, to allow some shoosting.

TP is too steep and not open enough from above, makes grabbing the RA risk-free. Would be good to find a way of re-jigging this jumppad so the player doesn't have to make a full 180 between start and finish. Maybe drop the area at the top down a bit with some steps around the JP exit, or push the JP back further into the wall.

[phantazm11]

Great ideas Foo. I'll see about implementing them and see how they work out. I was worried about the long distance to the RA and also the ledge above the MH. Your thoughts will give me a great starting point.

[ShadoW_86]

Hey phant. Yesterday I did small run on your new map, and get a few impreesions:

- map is too big/wide open. Eveything seems so huge (as it was mentioned already by Pat). And while it's matter of personal taste mostly, this time I think it really needs some scaling down or reworking. Right now it's RG paradise too much.

- it's an alpha release, so maybe it's not an issue atm at all, but in botplay, the most interesting parts of the map are simply dead. I mean those RL/YA hallways, where you have there those super cool curved staircases and really nice design of everything. Bots don't use it at all, and because of me neither. For me it's just the best part of the map. So have in mind for next releases - to balance whole map .

-Unfortuately there are some things I don't like much, but I'll write about it later. Right now those are just the very first thoughts.

[v1l3]

I played it with promode physics enabled against a bot last night, and I think it has a really nice flow to it. I know it's just non-textured, but I think it's really gonna look good with the curves and things, like the YA/PG area..very cool. I think if you shrunk it down to half of what it is...or maybe one-third? Thin down the hallways like Pat said. It was fun. =)

[AEon]

Since this is an alpha, some comments are probably redundant on my part, but here goes:

• Your rounded off corners show sparklies a lot. In one case it's simply the patch being too high compared to the touching wall brush. And you could caulk the brushes behind those wall patch corners in a few areas.
• I noted the size of the map as well... but if you are going TDM, IMO, this should be OK.
• The other "technical" thing I noticed (did not play against bots yet though), are several areas that bots will never be able to get to e.g. the platform with one of the RLs on it (IIRC there was at least one other such area with an inaccessible item/weapon for bots). I'd suggest adding a narrow ledge along the wall, e.g. via deco tube (botcliped) that lets the bots get to these platforms, players will jump the gaps anyway, so it should not impact the gameplay otherwise.

[Foo]

I've had another FFA play on this tonight, and got some more thoughts.

Apart from the scale, some other things seem 'off':
- The entire upper area is connected together. Feels like there shouldn't be such a '2 floors all the way round' feel to it. if the upper area was literally divided into 2 wholly seperate sections, I think it'd work better.
- The scale isn't as oversize as I originally felt, but there is a lack of 'tight' areas. Everywhere is wide open, and there needs to be some contrasting tighter doorways/stairwells between areas, to draw fire.
- Feels like too few items for FFA and TDM. Multiple of several weapons (SG, RL), more ammo boxes in clusters, more 2 x 25h blobs here and there, and some armor/health shard trails.
- There are some slower areas around the YA/RG/jumppad area. Might benefit from a third level adding some connectivity between the floors.

[phantazm11]

Thanks a ton for the feedback guys.

Upon further reflection, I realize you are correct...the map is too big. I was planning on adding a ton of detail to the hallways and such, which would have fixed that problem, but for some reason I didn't think about the width of the halls affecting the length of the map also :/

In doing so, I've decided to go with a more minimal, Quake Live sort of vibe for the map.

I started yesterday and almost have the entire thing rebuilt. I've been mulling that RG/YA area at the back of the map also and thought that I might break that into two separate rooms instead of stacked hallways. Will think more on that today. I agree with you on that slow part, Foo. I've also implemented some of your other ideas and they work really well in this map.

Depending on how long it takes to build the YA/RG section of course, but I hope to have another alpha version out in the next few days. I can't wait to start detailing this, but I'd like a solid layout before I start any of that.

[cityy]

I just wanted to give your map a go but if you want to change it completely I will wait with that. I always liked smaller maps more than big maps because IMO they suite the quake gameplay better so I am looking forward to the changes.

[ShadoW_86]

Phantazm, you should also add more health items. While playing 4v4 tdm, or even ~6 ppl ffa, many times instead of attacking enemies I was looking for some health .

[phantazm11]

Thanks ShadoW_86, will add more.

[phantazm11]

Straight out of Radiant, the alpha 2 version of my map is ready to go.

Download



A ton of changes have been made, incorporating the feedback from you guys that I believe worked best with this map. I've also made changes to the flow of the layout, which I believe enhances the playability of the map and makes it faster than before.

Let me know what you think!

[edit] This is also setup as TeamDM now. Have fun!

[Foo]

definite improvements in the central area flow and MH room, and overall.

- Still feel the scale is off. Starting to feel more like it's the difference in height between the upper and lower floors (there's a LOT of height between the RL and MH in your last shot, by way of example. Personally I keep the average distance between floor levels between 192 and 256 units (about 4 big blocks in radiant). This feels much higher than that. As a consequence, you have to peer up and down at much stronger angles just to accomodate the height difference. It also renders the player with the height advantage in an even better position than normal. Would suggest dropping the height distance in the MH room, and the Rail room, and look at doing it in the Quad room also. central area feel about right, maybe a slight adjustment on either the ground or top floor to squish it up a touch. This'll help with that height/tight issue around the RA jumppad too, I think.

- Bottom area in the RG/YA room doesn't flow yet, the 25h definitely isn't worthy of its position, try a 50h or a pair of 25s down the corridor where the ammo packs are. Column obscuring the RG feels flimsy in contrast with the rest of the architecture.

- RL platform in the MH room is way oversize. If you drop the height difference (as above) then shrinking it down to half its current size should work out. Jumping across the room via the RL platform feels like more of a stretch than it should be, maybe add more of a ledge on one of the sides to shorten the overall leap.

TP area in the Quad room doesn't make sense, with the wall break between the room entrance and the TP. i find myself entering the room, then turning 180 and having to jump over the stubby wall thing. If you could engineer that entrance into a set of steps up or down, with the level floor around the TP all connected into a single piece, it'd feel more natural.

Like the central area but feel the 5hs aren't worth the trip to go get them. same of the ones in the quad room, really. Maybe close off those 5h areas in the RA room and narrow down the ledge the RA sits on? Also, a roof above the RA would even up the height advantage a little bit (if there's something to bounce ammo off).

Apologies for negativity, I really do like it. It's coming along nicely.

[ShadoW_86]

definite improvements in the central area flow and MH room, and overall.

- Still feel the scale is off. Starting to feel more like it's the difference in height between the upper and lower floors (there's a LOT of height between the RL and MH in your last shot, by way of example. Personally I keep the average distance between floor levels between 192 and 256 units (about 4 big blocks in radiant). This feels much higher than that. As a consequence, you have to peer up and down at much stronger angles just to accomodate the height difference. It also renders the player with the height advantage in an even better position than normal. Would suggest dropping the height distance in the MH room, and the Rail room, and look at doing it in the Quad room also. central area feel about right, maybe a slight adjustment on either the ground or top floor to squish it up a touch. This'll help with that height/tight issue around the RA jumppad too, I think.

- Bottom area in the RG/YA room doesn't flow yet, the 25h definitely isn't worthy of its position, try a 50h or a pair of 25s down the corridor where the ammo packs are. Column obscuring the RG feels flimsy in contrast with the rest of the architecture.

- RL platform in the MH room is way oversize. If you drop the height difference (as above) then shrinking it down to half its current size should work out. Jumping across the room via the RL platform feels like more of a stretch than it should be, maybe add more of a ledge on one of the sides to shorten the overall leap.
.

Exactly my thoughts, I was going to write exactly same things.
Overall map plays now way better but still there is something wrong with it. Whole layout is a little odd for me, there's something strange about it . I don't really like the flow of the map, but can't actually say what should be changed to improve it.

I noticed mismatching curves here:

c1.jpg

Also I think it would be nice to make a dorrway between those two ledges with sh items.

c2.jpg

[cityy]

As promised I played a few rounds and there are parts I really like and parts I don't like very much.

At the moment all the action is going on in the central room (LG, RA) and the MH-room. I really like how the RA-room works out and how it is connected with the MH room. The only thing disturbing me here is the grenade launcher area. IMO it is poorley connected and there are not many reasons to travel there. What I would do is directly connect it with the YA/RG-room:

[lvlshot]http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7681/phantq3dm2a21.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9454/phantq3dm2a2.jpg[/lvlshot]

You should also try to make the paths as short as possible, because running along a path for ages really sucks imo. E.g. most of the curved paths are too long.

I think the current quad room doesn't really work out. There is no vertical gameplay in that room and it is one big curve - you dont have much possibilities to get out of a fight or move arround in general:

[lvlshot]http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1610/phantq3dm2a22.jpg[/lvlshot]

I would place a jump pad there to have quick access to the upper level - this way you could remove the teleporter which is kinda useless imo or use it elsewhere. I would also "uncurve" at least one half of the room to make it less monotonous (layout wise).

About item placement: I think quad should be in the center so I would place quad at LG and place the LG at the PG near MH. The RA on the top of that map should be replaced by a YA and moved to the center of the "old" quad room.

All in all I like the layout, just the quad room doesn't work out yet. Ehm yea and btw you should really be able to shoot through that fence at the MH.

[Foo]

For that last shot, how about instead of a jumppad up, the TP exits up there? Then there's doorways to the left/right to the 5h shelves, and a corridor straight forwards which leaves you on the walkway above the quad?

The current TP exit in that room doesn't really work for me, just dumps me outside where I have to make an awkward 180 to go the GL route.

[Foo]

Made a demo of a quick FFA game with bots, to show how it's playing for me.

http://www.mediafire.com/?jjyd4kjnmtx

Noticed that getting to the 50h up near the RA/RL is a real pain when you're down below... it's a LONG route round to that ledge.