Maze-eur Playground

Discussion for Level editing, modeling, programming, or any of the other technical aspects of Quake
deqer
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:30 pm

Maze-eur Playground

Post by deqer »

Maze-eur Playground is a tiny addictive little map that I and my friends like to play at our LAN parties.

Please ignore the screenshot in post #2, because the map has significantly changed since that screenshot was taken.

Feedback appreciated.

Download (new): http://www.bport.ca/temp/krctf01.zip (updated: 2010-03-07)
Download (old 5): http://www.bport.ca/temp/krctf01_old5.zip
Download (old 4): http://www.bport.ca/temp/krctf01_old4.zip
Download (old 3): http://www.bport.ca/temp/krctf01_old3.zip
Download (old 2): http://www.bport.ca/temp/krctf01_old2.zip
Download (old (oldest)): http://www.bport.ca/temp/krctf01_old.zip

Here are some screenshots:
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
Last edited by deqer on Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:29 am, edited 6 times in total.
cityy
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by cityy »

We already talked in irc but here are some suggestions:

[lvlshot]http://www.bport.ca/temp/krctf01/krctf01-09.jpg[/lvlshot]

I'd suggest to move the railgun there where you have this red light spot on the upper area and put the LG to the old RG spawn - at the moment there is no reason to go up to the second level.

This Mega Health floating mid air on the bridge causes bot camping because bots always try to reach it :owned:
Maybe put the MH on the second lower bridge.

Removing the stairways was a good move imo but I would still add a power up (I'd like quad damage or haste) down there at the lava "pool". Or maybe even put the MH there.

IMO, the mid area needs two mroe weapons right and left next to the bridge - maybe add two SGs here.

All in all the map is fun to play. It is really open - that's why I have FPS drops in some places but it is not that heavy.

Note: These are only suggestions :)
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deqer
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by deqer »

Thanks for your feedback, cityy.

Please note,
- "red light spot on the upper area" = regen
- "second lower bridge." = quad
- "down there at the lava pool" = invis

Having said that, please give me your new feedback about what you'd like to see done with those areas. For example, you suggested the RG be moved to the red spot assuming the red spot is empty, however the red spot is currently reserved for the regen. I'm still open to your suggestions, now that you know the power-up placement for regen, quad, and invis. :)

---

cityy and I also discussed that krctf01 was recently released 8 months ago on lvlworld. Since there are structural changes in this updated version, I will most likely need to change this to be krctf02. Sorry for the confusion.
cityy
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by cityy »

Haha seems like bots have just stolen the items away - I played without sound :owned: Gonna look into it again.

Ok - I am currently wondering how I could play like 15 minutes without noticing any power up but ok..

Regen and Quad work well! Invis seems quite useless, IMO. I think you can remove it.. I'd add some ammo there at the upper level - I find myself looking for rockets quite often.

Maybe switch the RG with the mid RL and place two new RLs at the Tele exits.
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deqer
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by deqer »

Okay cityy,

I've made some changes now. Please download again.
fKd
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by fKd »

looking great man. but break up the repetition on the brick texture in the pit screenshot.

looking forward to the final

edit: also be careful, it looks like a rail paradise
cityy
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by cityy »

That's why I wanted the rail at the current Regen place - this way it would be not that easy to pick up.
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deqer
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by deqer »

Okay guys,

I've updated the download links, and screenshots above.

fKd, I have done something different with the walls of the pit area now.
cityy, I've added a platform that you need to bounce to to get the rail gun now.
deqer
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by deqer »

Hey guys,

Anyone else have feedback? I really would like to finalize this map. If it looks good, then say so. I need some people to say it looks good, so I can release final. :)

I'm open to making changes, still.
Anthem
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by Anthem »

Oh, it looks fine. I think it would be a great map for about 8v8. Haha. :)
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deqer
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by deqer »

Anthem wrote:Oh, it looks fine. I think it would be a great map for about 8v8. Haha. :)
Hah, 8vs8 would be pretty crazy on this map. There'd be rockets flying all over the place, so many that the smoke trails would lower your frame rate! ;)
deqer
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by deqer »

I'm guessing by the lack of feedback this means that there's nothing wrong with the map now. So, if I submit it to lvlworld, I should get 10 out of 10 score, right?
cityy
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by cityy »

I am still thinking that you should switch the RG with the regen and put regen elsewhere but I have no idea where.. thinking about it.
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deqer
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by deqer »

I've updated the map. Please re-download the krctf01.zip file. Details in my original post: http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewto ... 63#p799051
v1l3
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by v1l3 »

[[Erased]]
Last edited by v1l3 on Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
deqer
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by deqer »

[edited]

"thx for your feedback."
Last edited by deqer on Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
sock
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by sock »

@deqer, picking apart someone's feedback and belittling their comments is not the way to accept feedback. >:( You came here remember and asked people for feedback, it is not the other way round. If you don't understand what someone is saying to you with regards to feedback then you ask them why and try to get examples from them to highlight their point!
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cityy
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by cityy »

I don't think v1l3 tried to offend you in any way deqer - he was just sharing his opinion about your map. :ninja:
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deqer
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by deqer »

[removed]
Last edited by deqer on Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hipshot
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by Hipshot »

Calm down... everyone gets critique once in a while, either it's constructive or not, doesn't really matter.

And what is up with all the armors and the quad down there... Maybe that's what he meant with the item layout.
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v1l3
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Re: KRCTF01: Maze-eur

Post by v1l3 »

The only reason I made my comment is because you said:
deqer wrote:So, if I submit it to lvlworld, I should get 10 out of 10 score, right?
My point was that if I don't say what I said, you'd have someone saying that to you in a map review...where you would have to look at a terrible criticism for years and have a couple thousand people reading it on top of it. Now..you can hate me or thank me..I've done more reviews on ..::LvL than practically anyone else...and I've always tried to more helping rather than being destructive.
Johnny Law
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by Johnny Law »

Hey dude. I cranked your map through a quick entity analysis. You can see the overview here: http://www.neogeographica.com/q3/overviews/krctf01.html

(Use buttons at the bottom of the page to toggle entity sets on/off.)

The script didn't find much wrong, but some warnings did pop up about spawn locations. You have unequal numbers of red and blue spawpoints (team_CTF_redplayer/blueplayer) and unequal numbers of red and blue respawn points (team_CTF_redspawn/bluespawn).

Also your number of spawn/respawn points, and deathmatch spawnpoints, is a little low. Generally a CTF map will have 10-16 of each, although since this map is on the small side it might not support quite that many. Probably not a big deal.

One other entity note: even if you're not going to support TA play, you'll want to put a team_CTF_neutralflag entity in the center of your map. (Mark that entity with "gametype" "oneflag".) The bots in vanilla Q3 will actually play better if they have this entity available to mark the map center.

That's all nitpicky stuff though; I haven't played around on the map much yet. More later.

Edit: corrected neutralflag gametype.
Last edited by Johnny Law on Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Johnny Law
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by Johnny Law »

This kinda reminds me of the Threewave "sillymaps", in a good way. Constant chaos & carnage. There's a few motifs repeated around the map that make for fun fights and movement: a mix of minor and not-so-minor levelchanges, the walls blocking LOS on a small scale, and the q3ctf1-like windows you can jump through. I've got no objections to the weapon placement. Bots also play the map fairly well.

I'll divide the rest of my comments between "things you could tweak while keeping the map basically the same", and "bigger changes".


*** Tweaks:

I'd probably recommend to juice up the accel pad arcs so they punt you all the way over the opposing pad. The situation to avoid is when a minor difference in jump arc, maybe just caused by the way you entered the pad or by stray MG fire, causes you to drop down a little early and get tangled up in thin rail brushes. And in any case, make sure the jumppad arc is bang through the YA; currently if you take off from the bottom lip of the accel pad it's quite possible to go under the YA without grabbing it.

Also clambering over the bridge rails to drop down to the RG feels fiddly. Maybe use a wider, more obvious & accessible drop-down spot? I assume you're trying to make it inconvenient to get the rail, but just putting it away from the action & requiring a drop-down does that. If you also introduce fiddly movement too, then once someone has to do that a lot of times it becomes annoying. Especially because the rest of the play on this map involves just bombing around at high speed.

That said, I'm not sure that sticking the RG down there actually does much to prevent this map from becoming a railer's paradise. You can drop down and get it quite easily & quickly. It could be more effective to put it out in the open, perhaps a new high spot in the center that you would have to climb or ride a platform up to while being exposed. The Quad could go down to the lava level, and the RA could go down to where the quad currently is, to break up the unusual armor trifecta in middle. (I haven't seen the earlier versions of the map, so I'm not sure how these comments match with other placement comments above.)

A minor note about the center area: you have 16x32 risers on the stairs. The "id standard" is more like 8x24, although other maps (including one of mine) have gone for chunkier risers anyway. You might want to try smaller risers to see if it feels smoother.

It's weird that the default jump arcs don't go anywhere for the circular jumppads. They're easy to use once you realize, but it's different behavior from almost all other Q3 maps. Note that the bots do use them OK currently, so if you fiddle with them check that bots continue to understand them.

You have "spawnflags 4" on the respawn entities; what's that for?

The 4 corner teleporters confused me at first. I'm a little dubious about the benefit of the "side teleport" flow, but assuming you keep it, maybe put an arrow decal on the floor by the TP entrance pointing toward the dest, for the benefit of dummies like me.

Bots seem to be able to handle the various paths & items, but they aren't interested in grabbing the MH -- or going up high in general -- or in getting the RG. That may just be the way things are, but if you want to try to tweak bot behavior, see http://web.archive.org/web/200408110840 ... otopt.html


*** Bigger changes

First thing that jumps out is the huge open LOS down the center of the map. If the enemy team has human players who are good with rail, LG, or even MG, then any flag carrier is dead when they step into midmap. One partial solution would be to basically drop a huge block onto the current RA location, completely sealing off that center bridge. (Of course that messes up the RA/quad/rail item placements I was talking about before.) Might need a few other walls. Don't turn it into a real maze, but check where the really long & wide LOS are and ponder if there are simple solutions to block them.

(Another partial solution would be to ditch the RG, but I hesitate to suggest that because you don't want to REALLY anger the railwhores.)

The other major change I would find interesting has to do with the map's symmetry. Structurally it's mirror-symmetrical on two axes, which means that once you've seen one-fourth of the map you've seen the whole thing. Typically a map is more interesting if it's only symmetric on one axis, or if it's rotationally symmetric. This map looks like a candidate for rotational symmetry, or at least some minor bits of it.

For example, what if the accel pad to YA was only available on the "right-hand side" (as you leave the base). Or if the area around the flag allowed an attacker to come from a high/exposed vantage point on one side, and a low/shielded approach on the other. There's also some opportunity to make the teleporter arrangement more useful. The general idea is to give people reasons to choose route A versus route B other than just "where are the bad guys". Note that I don't think you need to turn a small/simple map into a large/complex map, but you can spice it up. There are a lot of different possibilities if you commit to breaking that symmetry.


----


Any changes are ultimately up to you of course... you've certainly played & thought about this map more than I have. I do think it needs a bit more baking, even if you want to keep the same fundamental feel.

And just as an honest heads-up: if you're truly jonesing for high scores on LvL, a small funmap may disappoint you, because it will inevitably get dinged in the scoring.
deqer
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by deqer »

Thank you for that feedback, Johnny Law. I appreciate the time and effort you put aside for me, and my map -- as well as appreciate the time and effort from everyone else that has downloaded/played/commented on my map.

BTW,
That overview is awesome, I think I want to have more fun with that.

Nice catch on the spawnpoints. Will fix.

Thank you for the TA comment. I've always wanted to do the best -- that included the idea of making this map both q3a and ta compatible -- but I wasn't sure at the time.

I agree with everything about the Tweaks. I agree with the Bigger changes as well.

I like how you commented on my wall windows reminding you of q3ctf1 -- because that's actually what this map is all about. q3ctf1 fuels my inspiration to map more ctf maps like q3ctf1.

You're right about the "sillymaps" feel. Constant chaos and action. You're also right about how in general that it's not really what people are looking for. :)

I tried to get away with a quickie cheap map and get high scores for it, and i've realized that I won't be able to.

I think what I will do is clean up this map with the Tweaks you've suggested, the teleporters, RG, and armor/quad -- and then release it as a "silly" map, where I will expect to receive "silly" scoring -- or I won't release it at all, and keep it for myself. :)

I will then make a new map, which will be a copy of this map, but with all the serious changes done to it. I believe these changes would significantly alter the flow and appearance of this map. It would feel like a new map, therefore I would release it as new map. It will still have one small part (on each side) that will have a slight maze'ish feel from the previous map, but mostly everything else will be different, mostly following the suggestions you made.

Thank you for the bot tutorial. Very good, and rare information.

Thank you again.
Johnny Law
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Re: Maze-eur Playground

Post by Johnny Law »

Sounds like a plan! Good luck, full speed ahead, etc.

If you want to do full TA support BTW, here's a relevant snippet. I think this is in the Radiant manual or helpfiles somewhere, but I don't have them handy to check:
  • Place a team_CTF_blueflag in the blue base. Gametype: ctf, oneflag
  • Place a team_CTF_redflag in the red base. Gametype: ctf, oneflag
  • Place a team_blueobelisk in the blue base where the goal should be. Give it a facing angle. This forms the flag base. Gametype: Do not mark any gametype.
  • Place a team_redobelisk in the red base where the goal should be. Give it a facing angle. This forms the flag base. Gametype: Do not mark any gametype.
  • Place a team_neutralobelisk some place in the neutral area of the map, preferably equidistant from both bases. Gametype: harvester
  • Place a team_neutralflag some place in the neutral area of the map, preferably equidistant from both bases. Gametype: oneflag
So I was actually wrong before about the "gametype" value for the team_neutralflag; it should just be "oneflag".

For the team_neutralobelisk, you can give it a "gametype" value of "harvester oneflag" (rather than just "harvester") if you want it to appear as a little flag base in oneflag mode. I believe that's what the Threewave maps generally did.

Anyway, those are the necessary entities for the TA gametypes. That doesn't include the special TA powerups and weapons.

------

As for the map overview... the overview generator is combo of a tiny Q3 mod and a Perl script. It only works on CTF maps because it uses the flag positions for reference. If anyone who is Perl-capable wants to use it, it's downloadable at http://www.neogeographica.com/q3/overvi ... r_v1_3.zip

Back when I first put that together years ago, I tried to give it really complete documentation. Which is good, because it let me figure out how to use it again yesterday! On the other hand, the documentation is "so complete" that it is hard to use for a first-timer... it would really benefit from a simplified version that skips over all of the arcane options you don't need to use 99% of the time, but oh well. Anyone able to figure out a Q3 map editor can probably hack it. :) Those docs are viewable at http://www.neogeographica.com/q3/overview_generator/
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