Q3ct3 *alpha*

[cityy]

See the latest crap I produced :

[lvlshot]http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4390/q3ct3vis14.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8120/q3ct3vis15.jpg[/lvlshot]

FPS starts droping - I have to add caulk brushes and all this stuff soon. Update maybe on monday.

[cityy]

***UPDATE***

Latest beta:

http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta.zip

Sorry for the post spamm the last few days, I will work on summing up my posts in the future. Tho, enjoy the update - I hope I didn't forgett to include any textures.

- cityy

[AEon]

The map is starting to look really nice, but as I feared most folks will probably never see all the cool details way up in the map.

A few things:

• You are missing some textures and a sound in VQ3:
  • WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default
    trying textures/ctf/metal_b.TGA...
    trying textures/ctf/metal_r.TGA...
• There is some really ugly issue, probably with caulk textures, in the RG room, the walls are showing the void.
• The floor trim near the TP/SG wall with the tubes, should not end just before the tubes, but pass right under them, IMO. The cut off trim looks a bit weird presently.
• You might want to pick an Andromeda JP texture for all your JPs, and use an Andromeda shader for them.
• I am not sure two RLs is a good thing. You may want to replace the more central RL with a PG.
• The JP to the RG "hole" has a bit of an overbouce, and also pushes the player into the wall.

IMO, the layout still is missing something, though I have a hard time pointing out what exactly. Probably a 3rd height level, allowing for some clever vertical fights. Presently the 2nd level area with the RL (the one near the RA) is a bit dead. But then again I am not a 1on1 player, so I may well be missing some tactics.

[cityy]

***UPDATE: Beta2***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta2.zip

Changes:

- fixed the caulk issue at the RG room - I should have been visiting it before uploading the map
- worked on the floor trim at the tubes
- added jumppad textures from sock's tech set.
@ AEon: I was messing arround with the andromeda jumppad textures and imo they are too blueish and in the end I liked the shader of sock's textures more - freaky colors
- removed the second RL - I wasn't sure about it anyway
- tweaked RG jumppad

Layout changes:

- added an additional way up to the PG area
- Added an extra room at the PG are containing another YA and LG ammo
- added 5 armor shards in front if this room to give the area more importance - now you can take up a total amor amount of 75 visiting this area

Some things btw:

WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default

I don't know how to fix this

Known bugs:

- badly sized brush at the RL
- texture issue at the PG jumppad

As usual I hope that I didn't forgett anything, enjoy!

Thank you for the latest feedback.

- cityy

[AEon]

Have not tested the map yet, but concerning:

• WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default

there are several ways to track this:

• Open the .map in a programmers editor (well, notepad will do also), search for "windfly", and then manually delete the entity calling this sound. Bit tricky, you'd have to understand the {} blocks in a map source.
• You must have more than one sound entity in the map. Select one, then do a Shift+a, this will select *all* sound entities. You should then be able to find any possibly "hidden" entities. You'll need to go through them all one by one though.

[cityy]

search for "windfly"

No results here :/

You must have more than one sound entity in the map.

Sound entities? /afk google

[AEon]

Hmm... strange about windfly... no idea why it's not possible to track the warning.

About the changes:

• The new YA area is neat, a bit "cramped" maybe, but looks nice and definitely helps that area. Now you actually have a meaningful paths on the upper level.
• Personally I'd swap the new YA with the RA. Presently you can easily grab the MH and then strafe-jump right to the RA in no time. "Hiding" the RA on the upper level would make that a bit more difficult.
• The new JP that pushes you towards the bridge is an interesting idea. I like the 90° stairs there. Though I had the feeling the JP here was redundant, I'd suggest you try using more of those 90° stairs to build a path up to the upper level, without requiring a JP.
• The PG JP and the one near the RL both have over-bounce. The JP to the RG now works.
• Had some interesting bot fights with Xearo, the map is definitely getting better gameplay-wise.
• Someone else my need to verify this, but I am experiencing very bad FPS drops when rotating in several areas of the map. E.g. looking towards the RA and then turning around to look at the MH, or when rotation near the RG YA, looking towards the RL. There seems to be a massive vis issue, when looking towards the center of the map. Maybe my PC was overheating. Hmmm.
  
  If not... you may need to look into hint brushes to optimize the map some more... this may require a change in geometry to block off some areas vis-wise. Note: I have not looked into this in any detail, just mention it as a future "warning", since you are still adding details.
• I was actually able to do the strafe jump onto the bar, reaching the RG directly in vQ3... whee .
• GL will get a weapon pad right?
• The "weird" colors you use for the JPs... well may be a bit too weird?

Update:

• You will need to add more "filler" lights. My TFT is very sensitive to dark maps, i.e. it has trouble showing them properly. That way I notice too dark maps very quickly. I have trouble seeing Xaero because his model is simply not lit by the map. E.g. me on the PG side of the bridge, Xaero at the RL.
• You might like to try swapping the PG with the LG. Xaero goes after the LG a lot.
• Xaero still prefers the boxes to get one level up to the PG, than the JP nearby. This may have to do with the fact that bots prefer the "quieter" path?
• The TP is not used by Xaero on hardcore... strange... maybe your trigger brush should touch the ground, and/or extrude more from the TP brushwork?
• Xaero also never uses the angled JP leading to the upper level (on the new YA side), this could be the motivation to add stairs here instead of the JP, should help the gameflow as well, IMO.
• Your water is great, it really helps as an audio cue. Trouble is that the bot, and of course also real players will use the trims alongside the water to *not* trigger a water sound. I think those trims will have to go.
• The TP is great BTW, good gameflow to exit onto bridge to get a 25H and then a RL.
• You may also want to remove the brush, blocking the side of the stairs leading up to the YA (the RG one). When trying to get up those stairs to the GL/YA you can get stuck there.
• Your gameflow in some areas really works well, e.g. Xaero running the parallel path LG to the RL JP, you running the path on the upper level (PG area), cutting off the bots path, letting the player predict movement.

The map is still quite "angly" (right angles). You should be able to find the areas where some "rounding off" or 45° cuts in the columns/corners may help. I don't recall the locations presently, I only noted that I kept running into a "corner".

[cityy]

**UPDATE - beta3**

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta3.zip

An experimental beta - enjoy

Thanks for your great feedback AEon. Tho I didn't have the time to think about all your points yet.

[AEon]

You prove again why I should never edit someone else's map, since you came up with some really good thoughts and changes yourself.

• Cutting off the old RG room was a very good move, and moving the RG pit more towards the center of the map as well. The dead-end passage also helps make picking up the RG dangerous.
• You'll be adding some detail and a less bright light in the RG corridor right? You might make the area were you paced the RG about 25% wider than the corridor, and add flat water, as a sound cue, i.e. create a small RG chamber. This way picking up the RG will trigger a splash. As an alternative / addition place some 5H in the corridor to make is clear that someone has just picked up the RG and is "coming out". Again to make the map less flat on the lower level, you could drop the new "RG chamber" a bit, 64u maybe, to have two sets of stairs in the perpendicular narrow corridor lead out to the normal lower floor level.
• The smaller SG/YA area feels a lot nicer and less "stretched"... i.e. cutting the whole JP jump in the hole thing was a good move. The SG here feels a bit crammed into the corner, maybe you could carve a bit into the wall around the SG
• I think the new placement of RA, LG, and PG, and the 2nd YA all help the game.
• I *really* like the new platform you added for the GL. Though I am wondering if switching the LG with the new GL location might not work even better.
• One thing that is becoming very clear is that pathing on the upper level of your map is not optional but actually an integral part of making the map play much more interestingly, IMO.
• Concerning that layout "theme": I *really* think the dead-end YA (the one not above the RG), needs to be integrated into the upper level pathing. I would suggest you continue the path through the wall near the LG and also continue the path, maybe around a corner cutting through your walls at the GL, to connect with the YA area, by adding stairs leading up from the left and right of the YA additionally. This way you could navigate most of the upper areas in one loop. This also fixes the gameflow stopper at the LG, where you presently *have* to jump down onto the boxes. I never really liked having to do that.
• From the water taking the stairs up to the RA room. Those two sets of 90° stairs presently still feel a bit weird, because the last few steps are perpendicular. This could be fixed by grouping the stairs into *3* groups, with small flat areas in between. You'd need to create some space to do that. Presently they feel too stashed together. IMO, losing the JP here was a good move.
• As deco and to make your floors less flat on the lower level, I'd suggest you add maybe a huge octagon-like "pit" into the floor around the MH, e.g. two steps leading down to the MH. The shape of the "pit" should probably follow the layout of the walls here somewhat.
• Note: The present water "barrier" can still be skipped by bunny-hopping. Funny that I was actually able to pull that off. IMO, this is a good thing, for it allows "skilled" players to avoid this water audio cue.
• Did you start hinting the map? When standing at the far end YA (near the LG) I get r_speeds of 11K, not really high, but I can see a lot of geometry from here that should actually be vis-blocked by columns etc... if you need help, I'd be willing to look into hinting.

Map is getting better and better... and the layout is starting to be really interesting and fun to play.

Update:

• Started play the map with more bots: Xaero, Klesk and Hunter. That was a lot of FFA fun .
• Bots still never seem to use the TP.
• You might like to playerclip off some of the corners, e.g. in the RA room the ones left and right of the doorways, and going up the stairs to the bridge on one side of the doorway.
• The TP area, IMO, is a relic from your first versions and is too large. You could make that area smaller by about 30%, leaving enough space for the SG and the TP.
• The crates next to the YA SG are neat, you can reach the SG with one jump when you do not take the stairs. There is a small box to the right that can get you stuck here. Either move it closer to the others or clip it please.
• The large crates below the LG are *really* popular as "stairs" for the bots. For a player they are very hard to climb though. The angle off edges help, but after jumping on the 2nd box I usually have too much momentum that I fall off it. A dumbed down placement of boxes might be helpful.

[Tabun]

I still don't know squat about the rules of creating maps that play well, so I'll just chip in with a few notes on how it looks.

• Trims like this one right here would look better if you make the 45-degrees slanted part wider, like so:
  just drag some edges around. Just mentioning it since its the kind of thing that should become an automatism. :]
• Overall the level looks a little bit too dull, mostly muted gray. The blue and orange seem a little too strongly saturated, but at the same time don't affect the surrounding geometry much. Maybe just my preference, but I'd go for more subtly coloured lights, and let them do more of the work compared to the rather strong sunlight. I'd also make the sunlight just slightly more dirty/yellowish.
• Part of the dullness seems to be due to the gray textures. I assume a lot of them are still just temporary for the gameplay test? If not, I'd consider giving some areas a more recognisably different look in terms of use of trims and wall textures.
• I think the light is rendered without the -patchshadows modifier, as judging by the light on the floor @ the curved stairs. Seems odd to me that the sunlight should come in there. I think it should be possible to reduce some polies by taking a more careful approach to setting up the sky/ceilings. Right now very big parts of the sky are drawn from areas that could do without. Looks like the map is covered by one big skybox. I may be wrong, but it looks like a wasteful approach.

That's all I can think of right now. It looks like it should be fun and solid to play, but like I said -- not the best judge of that.

[cityy]

***UPDATE - Beta4***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta4.zip

@ Tabun:

- Thanks for the trim advice I started doing it like this at the stairway near the RG room exit. The other trim stuff will be fixed with the next update.

- I'm currently looking through web galleries and other maps to figure out how to improve the lighting.

I'd also make the sunlight just slightly more dirty/yellowish.

I would really like to add a custom skybox with better light but I can't get any skybox work for some reason

- well, I'm not really good in chosing textures. I would really like to replace the concrete texture from the base set but I don't find anything I like.. If I would list everything that I don't like about the textures I wouldn't come to an end in the next two weeks

@ AEon: Thanks again for the huge amount of high quality feedback you give I liked a lot of your suggestions.

Feedback:

- I'm not sure about the upper corridor from the RL to the LG passing the bridge - it's just too long imo but I don't have an idea what to do here..

- How do folks like the new bridge?

[Tabun]

I was pretty lazy about making my own textures, but since I discovered http://www.cgtextures.com , that has become a breeze. Even if you don't want to do any editing, there's bound to be one or two tiling concrete or stone textures that you may find useful as a replacement?

[cityy]

I know about CGtextures but it seems like I have no talent for customizing texture references.

Edit: Maybe somebody has a quick tutorial link?

[AEon]

Makes me smile to see how things change from map version to map version... you keep surprising...

Glad you asked about the LG area ... here is how I had imagined it initially:

• 

• a) As I see it the biggest problem with all this new space is that it "bloats" the map size without actually significantly improving the overall gameflow. IMO, it actually make is a bit tedious here.
  
  My suggestion would be to place 90° stairs on both sides of the YA, leading up to the upper area on both sides. This keeps in flow, and minimized the amount of extra space the map takes up. And if the angled stairs require too many steps, you could move the YA platform up by 32u or so, thus adding a few extra steps from the lower level to the YA platform and use the rest of the angled stairs to reach the upper level. I'd delete the purple area completely.
  
  b) It could help to make the RA room a bit larger, and to round off (yellow) the corners into that room. Presently that room feels like it was glued onto the map.
• The connection between the RL and the "gap" you have to jump via wall brush (path to LG), would probably be better, for the bots as well, if you used some planks here too. I noted that on the LG side you ramped up with some steps, if you take those out the planks could be placed flat on the ground.
• RG room looks a lot nicer... and the water should work? The RG room is very rectangular presently, making it a but more square might help to make it look more like a room? Or maybe 8-sides?
• The long stairs from the water up to the RA, are definitely better gameflow-wise than the previous version. I'd still suggest adding a flat area in the middle of the stairs to break up the monotony of so many steps.
• The new bridge you added is interesting... will need to play more to see how this works. On the plus side it adds a "solid" connection between the two sides of the map, plus will help cut down vis (with some hint brushes). Keeping the walled off side as it is, it might help to make the solid bridge more danger prone from below, e.g. let the see the opponent running or to fire a rocket up here, by reducing the width of the bridge, so that the on it cannot take so much cover? Maybe 30% narrower?
• With the new bridge, the multi-level arena fighting is starting to take shape. A good thing, IMO.
• An idea to make the path from the RL to the LG (over that brush gap), less linear, would be to start at the RL, then go onto the "platform bridge" (the GL used to be here), but instead of going forward cut right, covering up the JP below (JP could be placed into the wall near the PG), then cut along the wall until you reach the LG room (i.e. the 90° angled set of YA stairs to be exact). This introduces another upper level - this time open "gallery" - somewhat the way you did this on the RA side. And add another interesting non-linear path. If the idea is unclear, I could sketch it out map-wise (must resist to de-compile map ).
• Closing off the LG area again, you could then create a niche where the stairs between the LG and YA were, to place the YA out of the direct path of the angled stairs on both sides.

Probably getting carried away here... but I am starting to see the map take shape.

Note: A word of caution... though it is "flattering" that you follow my suggestions, please always be sure you *really* like them yourself. I used to follow external suggestions in AEneon a *lot*... and now I no longer like that map - too much loss of my original vision. IOW, it is much more important that *you* like the map.

P.S. Look for a skybox you like, I can help you get it in the map.

Update:

• I like the MH "pond".
• You might like to add a trim edge around the RG hole again.
• It would be good to choose a white light from Sock's lamp collection, and place them on all the corridor/passage ceilings, e.g. above and around the RL. Should the default intensity be too weak, increase it in the shader.
• I like how the 25H works out on the planks... bots love it and so does my humble self .
• Playing 3 bots (Xaero, Hunter, Klesk) is starting to be a real challenge.

[AEon]

Hmm... technically your map still will have a lot of work in store for you. As a test I decompiled your map (wanted to check why the bots do not use the TP, no reason I could see), and looked at it in-editor, and saw quite a few technical issues that may trip you sooner or later. Now unless these are actually issues due to the decompile:

• You covered the MH hole in the floor with nodraw, this should probably be playerclip? Note you can cover the complete lower level floor with one huge playerclip brush (except the RG room that is lower), the overlap is not a problem really, so you don't need to reproduce the exact 8-sided shape (you can, but you don't need to).
• Your map is a box map... all your geometry is placed *in* a box. This is very bad for vis calculations, because the compile cannot properly optimize visibility. What you should do is use structural outer walls of your map, as the only connection to the void, and not the box you added around everything. This will be a bit tricky for your skybox. You may need to place a half-box over the top of your map, but following your outer walls.
• You use cluster portals all over the place. The placement per se seems to be OK, i.e. covering doorways, directly connecting with structural brushes. IIRC, these should *not* overlap with geometry though. (Note to experts here, if I am wrong please correct me). And you should also avoid cutting into patches. The cluster portal should be perpendicular (no angles). If you have a rounded off top of a doorway, place a botclip at the top, to make the area up there "airtight" for the "bot hull", and then place one cluster portal brush over the rest of the doorway (no overlap) - neatly into that gap left. This is to actually make those cluster portals work. You are aware that this is only for the AAS, area bot file right? And that this has nothing to do with the visibility optimizations?
• You placed hint brushes pretty much where the portals were. This in almost all cases is bad, or actually redundant, because the compile creates portals at doorways automatically. I'd suggest deleting all your hint brushes for now, and leave that for later. Also you should use common/skip (or hintskip) on all faces that should *not* create portals.
• Your complete map is structural. Not good. Only your outer walls and geometry that is supposed to block visibility (at some point) should be structural, the rest should be detail to reduce your compile times. Careful: You could presently turn everything detail (Selection menu, Make detail (Ctrl+M)) except the "skybox", since this is a box map, your outer hull *is* the "skybox" - but don't. For now mark any "deco", like wooden planks, or lights stuck on walls detail.
• And you should have serious problems with sparklies (glittering "pixels" a touching edges of brushes and patches). Strange, had not noticed this player the map though.
• Not sure is these are decompile bugs, but your botclip steps up those large boxes are strangely offset, there is a botclip brush blocking the direct path to the SG (RG hole room), and some nodraw brush seems to be floating above the MH.
• All the 5H in the corridor to the LG are stuck in the floor, that's the reason the game does note show them.
• Tip: Water brushes do not need to fill out the space you place them in exactly. A bit of overlap is actually a good thing, provided the brush is lower than the floor level. Thus you can use one water brush for the RG room instead of two. Using several water brushes often leads to weird artifacts, IIRC.

Fear not... we all had to learn these technical things, ask in this thread. Your map works as it is, but it is wasting resources, i.e. it is not taking advantage of what the compiler could do for you.

[cityy]

Hehe, I know the map is technically trash You know, it's the first map where I got to the point of technical optimizing and I don't know a shit. Until this point I learned mapping by "try and error" and reading these forums - seems like I will have to study a tutorial about this stuff (maybe you can recommend one?) I was always afraid you would decompile the map (((((:

[AEon]

I'd recommend looking into the Starting Quake Mapping - Link Resources sticky thread in this forum. Alas, I have not looked into manuals / tutorials in a very long time, so I have no idea what more recent "good" tutorials there are.

[tehSandwich]

For lighting theory, this is a short but good read.
http://www.hourences.com/book/booklighting.htm

[cityy]

@ AEon: Most of the links in this thread seem to be dead but I guess I will find some tutorials with google's help

@ tehSandwich: Thanks! I will take a look into it after I fixed the technical stuff.

[AEon]

I wanted to read up on bot clipping yesterday, because I remembered reading about that ages ago, it seems that Cardigan had such tutorials, but his "planetquake" hosted site is dead, like all other sites there. You can use google to find such pages and then look into the cached version. But it seems quite a lot of good info has dies with the shutting down of the planet site hosting.

We might want to start collecting the tutorials that have been lost, i.e. the links to them. I'd then probably update our link resources.

[cityy]

Yeah, very sad that planetquake stops hosting service. I found some kind of guide about hint brushes (http://www.nibsworld.com/rtcw/tutorial_ ... art1.shtml) and read parts of the gtkradiant guide. Now I know that I pretty much failed with everything you could fail with Well, I will look into the hint thingie and see what I can do with detail brushes - tho my burshwork became very unclean because of all the changes from the original layout to the most recent versions. I don't think I will clean up the whole brush work because if I would do so I would have to completely rework the map and this wouldn't be worth the effort, IMO. Looking forward to optimize and finish this one and planning/doing everything better in the next map.

Edit: Thinking of dropping this at all.

[AEon]

Note: Things like a caulk hull are not really needed for your map. You can keep most the geometry solid as it is... just turn some of the "deco" to detail. Also note, you should finalize the layout before you do any hinting.

Edit: Thinking of dropping this at all.

• Do you mean dropping the map as it is, and to start a new one?

[cityy]

Yea, I think of stopping working on this one or completely redoing it later since it seems to be a complete technical fail.

[AEon]

Pity, I was looking forward to the next changes.

The technical stuff is several hours of work, once you know what to look out for, so it's not such a terminal issue.

[Tabun]

I wouldn't drop this one so quickly. You've got important work done to get it to play good, right? Wouldn't waste that just because it needs fixing up..