No threads about the genocide in Palestine?

[Dark Metal]

Too bad you don't have a pic of him with a stupid look on his face, eh goof?

[scared?]

u mean this one?...

[LawL]

No this one.

[mjrpes]

FFS...it's like talking to a wall.

funny how i agree with you on most everything but when i put forth a hypothetical you go mad. no shit, israel broke the truce and americans proclaimed it was hamas' fault. israel is the aggressor, palestine is illegally occupied, and there is nothing wrong with hamas fighting back against its occupier.

but you ignore that i never disagree with this; instead i was asking how can public opinion in america be changed. you say "it can never change". i believe it is possible, by changing american perception that the palestinians are prima facie terrorists. and this could be done by resorting to more non-violent means of getting their message across. this would be a strategic move, not a concession by the palestinians of their right to fight back.

and so you disagree with this, instead thinking the elite in israel, washington and the media have such a check on public policy and opinion that things will never change, and that non violent means would be useless, so hamas might as well fight the bully to their death.

[Tormentius]

there is nothing wrong with hamas fighting back against its occupier.

but you ignore that i never disagree with this; instead i was asking how can public opinion in america be changed.

Fighting back by targetting military and government personnel is one thing but indiscriminately bombing civilians is quite another. That said, Israel is no better and although they have the technology and manpower to make pinpoint strikes they still choose missile attacks which slaughter innocents instead. Both sides are fucked.

IMO the Palestinians should be given back their pre-60s land and then set up a UN-staffed DMZ between the two nations. Its not a perfect idea but would be a hell of a lot better than the current setup. Regarding Jerusalem a multi-nation or UN group could take over policing it and make it a neutral zone since everyone there has as much right to it as the next group.

[R00k]

What I enjoy most about these discussions is that the closest Israel supporters will come to compromise is by saying that both sides are equally to blame.
People who are opposed to Israel's brutality regularly saying things like "Hamas is wrong," and "Palestinians shouldn't react with random violence."

But try to get a supporter of Israel to admit that they are bombing the shit out of 1.5 million people (most of them innocent) trapped in a box with 20-foot high walls, and have been expanding their borders for the last 40 years.

But they are only defending themselves.... by killing 100 times as many people - people who are at an obvious disadvantage - as they have lost themselves, and doing it repeatedly.

Some people will just never get past the "I support my team no matter what" mentality when it comes to issues like this, and those people are enabling these conflicts by participating in the debate exclusively on those terms.

I think it was Bill Moyers I was reading the other day, who said "Reciting the slogan 'My country, right or wrong' is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'" I think the same applies here.

[vesp]

What I enjoy most about these discussions is that the closest Israel supporters will come to compromise is by saying that both sides are equally to blame.
People who are opposed to Israel's brutality regularly saying things like "Hamas is wrong," and "Palestinians shouldn't react with random violence."

Wait, I think both these things... so I'm a (closet?) Israel supporter, but I am also opposed to Israel.

kk

Israel are being 'bullies' atm? yes...
Palestine (Hamas) continually pissing off the bully? yes...
gg


edit: simplistic terms, but that's the gist of it as far as I can see

[Captain]

So you're saying the Palestinians should just give up?

I notice how you label Israel as the bully. Is it not right to take action against the bully or should he be free to continue his ways without fear of consequence?

[Tormentius]

So you're saying the Palestinians should just give up?

I notice how you label Israel as the bully. Is it not right to take action against the bully or should he be free to continue his ways without fear of consequence?

They shouldn't give up but the methods used by Hamas are only making their own situation worse and are not helping to engender understanding or support on the world stage. Targeting military or government personnel is one way to fight back and still gain that support. Bombing cafes or commuter buses, not so much. That said, the world governments need to put some serious pressure on Israel to lay off their own indiscriminate missile strikes rather than giving them a slap on the wrist or a "please don't do that again (for the hundredth time). Continuing to back Israel's indefensible and aggressive actions is making a mockery of the standards our societies supposedly uphold.

It strikes me as somewhat bizarre that people on this forum seem so entrenched in their opinion that one side is "worse" or "more to blame" than the other. Both sides have a long history of atrocities in their bloody feud and both have a long ways to go before peace will ever be a true possibility. What exactly is so difficult to grasp about that?

[scared?]

lol when is the last time mossad...uhm i mean hamas targeted a bus or restaurant?...

[Captain]

So you're saying the Palestinians should just give up?

I notice how you label Israel as the bully. Is it not right to take action against the bully or should he be free to continue his ways without fear of consequence?

They shouldn't give up but the methods used by Hamas are only making their own situation worse and are not helping to engender understanding or support on the world stage. Targeting military or government personnel is one way to fight back and still gain that support. Bombing cafes or commuter buses, not so much.

They don't have the technology or resources to plan strategic attacks against military installations. They resort to suicide bombings and rockets that barely crack the pavement. If you think welcoming the IDF with peace slogans and flowers will make any difference on the world's perception of Palestinians, I've got a newsflash: The world doesn't give a fuck about them.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3bb834b78a

It strikes me as somewhat bizarre that people on this forum seem so entrenched in their opinion that one side is "worse" or "more to blame" than the other. Both sides have a long history of atrocities in their bloody feud and both have a long ways to go before peace will ever be a true possibility. What exactly is so difficult to grasp about that?

Except one side is fighting for the return of their own land while the other is committing genocide and supporting apartheid. There will be peace once Israel stops killing people, ie. never.

[Tormentius]

Except one side is fighting for the return of their own land while the other is committing genocide and supporting apartheid. There will be peace once Israel stops killing people, ie. never.

Trying to assert a lack of technology as a valid excuse for suicide bombings against civilian targets illustrates volumes about your naivety. Both sides in this conflict have committed a list of atrocities a mile long but, no matter how you cut it or which side does it, there is never a justifiable reason to target civilians to further a military agenda. The same point goes for the IDF and their frequent air strikes.

IMO a lot of the leaders from Hamas and from the IDF should be brought up on charges of war crimes but that will never happen as long as the West blindly supports one side of the conflict. The Middle Eastern and Western governments need to start demanding concessions from both sides and holding both the IDF and Hamas accountable for their actions.

[4days]

no matter how you cut it or which side does it, there is never a justifiable reason to target civilians to further a military agenda. The same point goes for the IDF and their frequent air strikes.

mazda's half-right. the idf is a single, well-equipped and organised force whereas the palestinian populations include a collection of groups with differing goals working from the same areas. they don't have a command centre where some mastermind is coordinating rocket attacks (and who could offer their total surrender in the face of overwhelming odds), they have a bunch of random assholes making shitty weapons out of farming materials and scrap that are fighting amongst themselves when they're not launching pathetic and largely impotent attacks over the wall. suicide bombers are a similarly disparate bag. they're not like the softhanded pussies we get over here in the uk that've fallen in with the muslim extremist version of a self-harming goth cult - they're usually motivated by the persecution/death of their immediate family. there's no reason for them to distinguish a military target from a civilian one.

one of the most thoroughly laughable things about the anti-palestinian position is the idea that anyone who wants to fight against israel should agree to put on a uniform and go stand in a field. gaza doesn't have enough infrastructure left standing to run schools or hospitals. are they supposed to produce uniforms, set up recruiting centres and decide on a suitably macho logo? where in their catch-22 situation are they supposed to find room for that? ffs, it is a fight between civilians. the difference is that one bunch of civilians has a military and tons of cash at its disposal.

this whole thing has been a complete clusterfuck from the word go, the british should've realised the crusades were over and nipped it in the bud when they had the chance. now we're left with this awful bloody mess where an occupation riddled with religious extremists, bristling with cash/guns and global support is thoroughly dug in with no meaningful opposition. i'd agree with your earlier post about splitting them up (perhaps along less ridiculous lines than the '47 partition) and turning jerusalem into a theme park, it'd be a better world if there was even the vaguest chance of that being adopted. that, along with being seen to try and resolve the situations in iran's other neighbours could lead the way to avoiding serious multinational conflict.

..but i can't see it happening. on top of opposing political sensibilities and western military ambitions, you'd risk massive religious opposition - and we all know that johnny worshipper will never talk anything but shit. the current situation will continue to deteriorate until war breaks out in some shape or form, whether or not palestine still exists at that point is academic.

[R00k]

I pretty much concur with that.

I'd like to add one thing:

There have been very few people in this world who could watch their friends and entire family destroyed at the whim of someone else, and take up passive, nonviolent protest against the people responsible for it. I would challenge anyone here to do that.

So to say that the Palestinians' culpability in this conflict stems from the fact that they aren't willing to do just that is not only an unfair burden, it's also almost instantly hypocritical.

There is obviously nothing wrong with pointing out that such action would be helpful to their interests. But to say that not being a nation full of Ghandis imparts blame on them is a ridiculous notion.

And I've certainly never heard anyone try to hold Israel to that standard. Instead of retaliating by killing 100 times the number of people they lost, why don't they just hold silent and passive protests all over the country when a rocket falls on their side of the fence?

[fKd]

i fully agree

[busetibi]

while I dont agree with all of your post 4days, it does contain some interesting points so yea, nice work.
@rook.
the jews tried "passive protests" once, all that got them were ovens.
do any of you think Mitchell the new U.S. Middle East envoy can do the same thing with the ME as he did in Ireland?

[R00k]

@rook.
the jews tried "passive protests" once, all that got them were ovens.

That's nothing but weak rhetoric and you know it. And it doesn't diminish my point in the slightest.

[busetibi]

@rook.
the jews tried "passive protests" once, all that got them were ovens.

That's nothing but weak rhetoric and you know it. And it doesn't diminish my point in the slightest.

weak?
hardly, but it could explain why the jews will never just meekly submit(read passively submit) to anyone again.
so in your world you think the Israelis should just grin and bear the rockets/mortars?
you expect the Israelis to do what you wouldn't expect anyone else to do, point of fact the arabs in gaza?
"So to say that the Palestinians' culpability in this conflict stems from the fact that they aren't willing to do just that is not only an unfair burden, it's also almost instantly hypocritical.
There is obviously nothing wrong with pointing out that such action would be helpful to their interests. But to say that not being a nation full of Ghandis imparts blame on them is a ridiculous notion."
so maybe Israel should take a leaf out of hamas book, and just fire rockets indiscriminately into gaza from say, Ashkelon, which is 20 kms away, they should get 12 seconds warning
would that salve your heart?

[Captain]

weak?
hardly, but it could explain why the jews will never just meekly submit(read passively submit) to anyone again.
so in your world you think the Israelis should just grin and bear the rockets/mortars?
you expect the Israelis to do what you wouldn't expect anyone else to do, point of fact the arabs in gaza?
"So to say that the Palestinians' culpability in this conflict stems from the fact that they aren't willing to do just that is not only an unfair burden, it's also almost instantly hypocritical.
There is obviously nothing wrong with pointing out that such action would be helpful to their interests. But to say that not being a nation full of Ghandis imparts blame on them is a ridiculous notion."
so maybe Israel should take a leaf out of hamas book, and just fire rockets indiscriminately into gaza from say, Ashkelon, which is 20 kms away, they should get 12 seconds warning
would that salve your heart?

So in your world the Palestinians should just grin and bear the air strikes and tank shells?
So maybe Hamas should take a leaf out of Israel's book and just rain bombs indiscriminately into Jerusalem.
Would that salve your black heart?

[busetibi]

okay rook, perfect world.....
Israel dee dees out of gaza (which they did three years ago, but forget that) they open all the borders between gaza and the west bank/ Israel, they leave the west bank, they share Jerusalem (have an "Open" city) would this placate hamas and the puppet master behind hamas?
I dont think so, you know why?
hamas charter.
"quote.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
end quote". (my italics)
now my way of reading this charter (and feel free to correct my interpretation) is that hamas wants the whole of Israel, not just a bit or even half, they want the whole box and dice.
so you and your ilks constant argument about hamas willing to sharing the land looks out of kilter with what the charter states

[busetibi]

weak?
hardly, but it could explain why the jews will never just meekly submit(read passively submit) to anyone again.
so in your world you think the Israelis should just grin and bear the rockets/mortars?
you expect the Israelis to do what you wouldn't expect anyone else to do, point of fact the arabs in gaza?
"So to say that the Palestinians' culpability in this conflict stems from the fact that they aren't willing to do just that is not only an unfair burden, it's also almost instantly hypocritical.
There is obviously nothing wrong with pointing out that such action would be helpful to their interests. But to say that not being a nation full of Ghandis imparts blame on them is a ridiculous notion."
so maybe Israel should take a leaf out of hamas book, and just fire rockets indiscriminately into gaza from say, Ashkelon, which is 20 kms away, they should get 12 seconds warning
would that salve your heart?

So in your world the Palestinians should just grin and bear the air strikes and tank shells?
So maybe Hamas should take a leaf out of Israel's book and just rain bombs indiscriminately into Jerusalem.
Would that salve your black heart?

black heart? you been watching Johny Dep in pirates again?
but wouldn't they also be killing muslims,catholics,jews et all, remember jews are not the only people living in Jerusalem.
but seeing as it's hamas I doubt they would give a fuck who they killed(they didn't seem to mind killing Fatah supporters during the little stoush) as long as a few jews were mixed in the death count they would be happy, and would hamas be crazy enough to risk hitting the al-Aqsa Mosque?
shows what an idiot you are for even thinking about them hitting Jerusalem.

[fKd]

arrrrg, this thread is just going in circles... i'm done

[GONNAFISTYA]

Jesus fucking Christ busetibi ....6 million jews were only half of the people killed in the holocaust. That has nothing to do with anything. You are presenting some of the stupidest, lamest, been-proven-wrong-a-thousand-times arguments I've seen people use in these types of discussions....and looking retarded to boot.

Shut the fuck up already.

[R00k]

That's nothing but weak rhetoric and you know it. And it doesn't diminish my point in the slightest.

weak?
hardly, but it could explain why the jews will never just meekly submit(read passively submit) to anyone again.
so in your world you think the Israelis should just grin and bear the rockets/mortars?
you expect the Israelis to do what you wouldn't expect anyone else to do, point of fact the arabs in gaza?
"So to say that the Palestinians' culpability in this conflict stems from the fact that they aren't willing to do just that is not only an unfair burden, it's also almost instantly hypocritical.
There is obviously nothing wrong with pointing out that such action would be helpful to their interests. But to say that not being a nation full of Ghandis imparts blame on them is a ridiculous notion."
so maybe Israel should take a leaf out of hamas book, and just fire rockets indiscriminately into gaza from say, Ashkelon, which is 20 kms away, they should get 12 seconds warning
would that salve your heart?

Are you intentionally ignoring my point? I'm saying that no one should be held to that standard under intense personal violence against people close to them (including Israelis). The reason I mention that Israel isn't held to that standard is simply to point out how absurd it is to take that position. The fact that you find it so reprehensible to suggest that Israel be held to that standard only proves my point, even if it wasn't intentional on your part.

okay rook, perfect world.....
Israel dee dees out of gaza (which they did three years ago, but forget that) they open all the borders between gaza and the west bank/ Israel, they leave the west bank, they share Jerusalem (have an "Open" city) would this placate hamas and the puppet master behind hamas?
I dont think so, you know why?
hamas charter.
"quote.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
end quote". (my italics)
now my way of reading this charter (and feel free to correct my interpretation) is that hamas wants the whole of Israel, not just a bit or even half, they want the whole box and dice.
so you and your ilks constant argument about hamas willing to sharing the land looks out of kilter with what the charter states

I never said a word about Hamas. See 4days' post, which I said I essentially agreed with.

What I did say: It is wrong to blame regular Palestinians for violence against them on the grounds that they don't behave like Ghandi. You seem to have taken serious issue with that.

If you want to use Hamas' charter to justify slaughtering people who might not even necessarily agree with it, feel free. Collective punishment is still a war crime.

But that's not even what I was talking about - that's your own tangent.

[mjrpes]

Gandhi