SCCC

[Ryoki]

Equality and safety through powerful paranoia... hell, it might just work.

[Geebs]

Actually, I've got a very easy way of solving this issue: pass a law that all guns have to look like dildoes. This would mean that anyone carrying a concealed weapon would be publically ridiculed; plus an added benefit would be that it'd make Tesla insanely happy.

The only downside I can think of at the moment would be a major increase in accidental, self-inflicted headshots by closeted rednecks but I guess you can't have everything.

[Ryoki]

That would give a whole meaning to the phrase 'raped at gunpoint'.

[plained]

haha mandatory dild0-modeled guns!

geebs!

[Peenyuh]

i think you may be making the same false inference that gun control people often make about britain, that 'few guns + few shootings' is the same as 'few guns THEREFORE few shootings'.

then again, every gun has a devil inside it that possesses its owner and turns them into a paranoid, slavering human bomb waiting to explode in a school yard, so clearly treating the cultural factors in violence as the subject of debate is totally the wrong approach and instead we should fetishise an inanimate object instead, because when the guns are gone THE DEVILS WILL BE GONE TOO RIGHT?

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Geebs: How many lees deaths would there have been that day if any of those victems had been armed and responsibly trained? As for the psycho, if he had not been able to get the weapons legally, he would have gotten them illegaly. People who intend violence will find a way to get the tools they need. If laws stopped criminals, we wouldn't need prisons.

For those who would answer me that "if the guns didn't exist..." It is counter productive to this issue. This is the real world and that's an "if" that will never happen.

[Jackal]

i think you may be making the same false inference that gun control people often make about britain, that 'few guns + few shootings' is the same as 'few guns THEREFORE few shootings'.

then again, every gun has a devil inside it that possesses its owner and turns them into a paranoid, slavering human bomb waiting to explode in a school yard, so clearly treating the cultural factors in violence as the subject of debate is totally the wrong approach and instead we should fetishise an inanimate object instead, because when the guns are gone THE DEVILS WILL BE GONE TOO RIGHT?

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Geebs: How many lees deaths would there have been that day if any of those victems had been armed and responsibly trained? As for the psycho, if he had not been able to get the weapons legally, he would have gotten them illegaly. People who intend violence will find a way to get the tools they need. If laws stopped criminals, we wouldn't need prisons.

For those who would answer me that "if the guns didn't exist..." It is counter productive to this issue. This is the real world and that's an "if" that will never happen.

It's impossible to say how many less deaths there would have been. Who's to say some "properly trained" person wouldn't miss and blow off some random's head? Cops go through a dedicated regiment of training and they do it all the time. I can just imagine what a scared bio major with a gun would do.

All arming your entire population is going to do is guarantee that whenever any crime occurs someone will get shot.

You aren't very smart.

[Survivor]

Using econometric methods, yes.

Any real research?

I detest this as an econometrics student, and fully stand behind you when I say factual data is absolutely shit at correctly understanding human behaviour.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Equality and safety through powerful paranoia... hell, it might just work.

That's pretty much the gist of it. I'm sitting here laughing that some people are trying to take an irrational state of mind (paranoid) and trying to tell me that they're being perfectly rational by taking precautions BECAUSE of their irrational belief.

Once again, forget the guns for a moment. If you think you need a weapon because you're convinced that society is shit and your country is a violent wasteland where someone could threaten/kill you or your family at any given moment and that you need a gun to "level the playing field"...then you are paranoid.

As Jackal put clearly...if you feel that being paranoid is normal then...your country is FUCKED!!!

I just don't get some of you who believe that everyone being armed with a weapon of any kind is a way to a peaceful society. It's fucking bonkers. The only excuse I've heard in this thread about carrying weapons is that you it's an "equalizer". How many of you who believe you need a gun actually needed it before. And...in retrospect....if you had a gun/weapon/huge rubber dildo at that time...what could the consequences have been instead of you surviving the encounter to post it on an online forum?

Fucking hell.

I must say that it's quite telling that people from the most right-wing countries (and former global empires) are the ones poo pooing my point of view on this and justifying paranoid behaviour.

And FFS...forget comparing fucking Denmark to the US and Britain. My point was that you don't need to go through life wishing you were armed against "the unanticipated". To be fucking blunt...the reasoning of "better safe than sorry" was the same misguided, paranoid and utterly fucking shortsighted reasoning for the Iraq war. If you can sit there and laugh at the right-wing-nut's reasoning for going into Iraq, then you should be able to laugh at the reasoning for wanting to carry a weapon. FFS.

[Tsakali_]

As for the psycho, if he had not been able to get the weapons legally, he would have gotten them illegaly. People who intend violence will find a way to get the tools they need.

not necessarily... using a gun and going off on your classmates is a serious indication of being a coward and a failure to follow through (with life).

it would keep pathetic incidents like this from happening if guns were harder to obtain in the first place.
he would probably resort to suicide...win/win

I am not saying that it's always the case but I am inclined to believe that more than half of the reported incidents could be avoided in this way.

[Peenyuh]

Once again, forget the guns for a moment. If you think you need a weapon because you're convinced that society is shit and your country is a violent wasteland where someone could threaten/kill you or your family at any given moment ...

That's not why we think we need guns. Society is not shit. My Country is not a violent wasteland. But the fact that the rest of the world seems to have a bitter grudge against America as a whole. I'm not going to give up my right to have a gun on the recommendation of a world that will kill me simply because I am an American.

BTW: America RULZ!!! WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Tsakali_]

BTW: America RULZ!!! WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

not to be directed at you but this is actually the main issue outsiders have with us... arrogance

[seremtan]

if it was possible to set a gun policy for the whole world, and your only choice was between a) only private citizens may own guns or b) only the state may own guns, you'd be fucking insane to pick option b, but this is effectively what gun control advocates are saying we should do: make sure only the most destructive institution in the world (the state) has the firepower

i'd love to see a comparison of the numbers killed by private citizens vs the numbers killed thru inter-state warfare since the invention of firearms, though i can pretty much guess which of those has resulted in the biggest bodycount

[Grudge]

war is a rather special situation

[EtUL]

It's impossible to say how many less deaths there would have been. Who's to say some "properly trained" person wouldn't miss and blow off some random's head? Cops go through a dedicated regiment of training and they do it all the time. I can just imagine what a scared bio major with a gun would do.

All arming your entire population is going to do is guarantee that whenever any crime occurs someone will get shot.

You aren't very smart.

Something could go wrong and an innocent could get shot by a CCWer. Lets not forget the reason the CCWer has his/her gun out is because SOMEONE ELSE IS SHOOTING UP THE FUCKING CAMPUS.

You are missing the people who carry. They go thru a course that includes shooting, and i would guess that most shoot for sport as well. It isn't some gun noob packing in biology class.

I don't know why anyone argues in the threads like this, or global warming, or iraq, or bush...neither side is going to concede and see the other way, and it usually just turns into a barrage of name calling and olos

[obsidian]

Instead of less guns in the US, they should just have less crazy people in the US. Problem solved.

[seremtan]

war is a rather special situation

quote of the day

[seremtan]

It's impossible to say how many less deaths there would have been. Who's to say some "properly trained" person wouldn't miss and blow off some random's head? Cops go through a dedicated regiment of training and they do it all the time. I can just imagine what a scared bio major with a gun would do.

All arming your entire population is going to do is guarantee that whenever any crime occurs someone will get shot.

You aren't very smart.

Something could go wrong and an innocent could get shot by a CCWer. Lets not forget the reason the CCWer has his/her gun out is because SOMEONE ELSE IS SHOOTING UP THE FUCKING CAMPUS.

You are missing the people who carry. They go thru a course that includes shooting, and i would guess that most shoot for sport as well. It isn't some gun noob packing in biology class.

I don't know why anyone argues in the threads like this, or global warming, or iraq, or bush...neither side is going to concede and see the other way, and it usually just turns into a barrage of name calling and olos

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH?!!?!!?!?!11111

[Peenyuh]

Instead of less guns in the US, they should just have less crazy people in the US. Problem solved.

not to be directed at you but this is actually the main issue outsiders have with us... arrogance

It would be arrogent if I believed that being an American made me better than everyone else. I do not feel that way. I am simply rooting fer the home team. I am proud of the positive aspects of America and ashamed of the negatives. As a whole, I would stand for Humanity even before I stood for America. I love my Country, yes. That does not mean I don't love others as well.

Edit: I believe most others feel this way too. As I said before, though, CNN doesn't put us on in front of the world. Only the nutjobs.

[YourGrandpa]

This argument can't be won in this forum. The people who are for gun control are considered unrealistic, communist douche bags that can't comprehend the fact that crazy people will always find a way to kill others. The people against gun control are war mongering rednecks that only want guns for unjustified/selfish reasons.

Simple solution: If you don't like guns, don't buy them.

The right to bear arms is never going to change in the US, no matter how much anyone obsesses over it.

[seremtan]

damn, and i thought this thread was going to turn into part 1 of a 12-part series on "how q3w can improve conditions like tom cruise, scientologist"

[GONNAFISTYA]

That's not why we think we need guns. Society is not shit. My Country is not a violent wasteland. But the fact that the rest of the world seems to have a bitter grudge against America as a whole. I'm not going to give up my right to have a gun on the recommendation of a world that will kill me simply because I am an American.

It's all fair that you think that way...but you're still paranoid. Not obsessively so...but paranoid nonetheless.

Yes..the world has a bitter grudge against America and some people might want to kill you simply because you're American...but you'd probably only have a real problem if you went to parts of Europe or the middle east. Your reasons don't cover other Americans within the US that might want to kill you.

Like I said...America is a pretty decent place in terms of quality of life....it's not overrun with militias and warlords roaming the streets. And gramps is correct in saying "that crazy people will always find a way to kill others." But that's part of life. Always has been always will be. Humans wouldn't have evolved to what we are if there weren't a billion things trying to kill us everyday. But arming yourself (with a gun, pocket knife, pepper spray, taser or a can of antiseptic and spraying everything like a neurotic) is simply paranoid behaviour in any "civilized" society.

I like to think that "civilized" is the direction of evolution were taking, instead of growing a 12 gauge on our arm.

I doubt this very much...but are many people simply terrified to walk the streets at night? Is there real danger? Or is it just inferred from all the "stay scared" media you guys get?

P.S. Yes...I know Detroit is a war zone.

[GONNAFISTYA]

The right to bear arms is never going to change in the US, no matter how much anyone obsesses over it.

Nobody's talking about removing weapons completely (although I'd prefer that in my "dream world"). We're talking about everyone packin.

I always laugh at that scene in Last Action Hero when the entire mafia family (including granny with a machine gun) pulled out their heat at the funeral.

[Cory]

It's like Socialism. Sounds great on paper.

[seremtan]

socialism sounds shit on paper

[GONNAFISTYA]

I've had many an internet argument about how police need to use force as a last resort and stop being so itchy on their trigger fingers.

Sorry for bringing this up again but this quote itself is the counter-point that people who go through "rigoruous" qualification procedures to get permits and those that have been smart enough to become familiar with their weapons at training courses and the shooting range:

If the police "need to use force as a last resort and stop being so itchy on their trigger fingers."...how the fuck are you gonna expect the average Joe to not shoot people as often if not more than cops in crazy situations?

Think about this...paranoia is contagious and it feeds itself. Police (unfortunately in some cases...not all) have to put themselves through a ton of bullshit and abuse everyday. Lots of people distrust their police forces and some people fear or hate them. Cops spend each and every day thinking the absolute worst in people and are fully convinced that their life is in danger every second because everyone dislikes them. Otherwise they wouldn't be so twitchy during pull overs these days because a few crazy people actually shot cops during pull overs. I'd guess it'd be the same for a military man behind enemy lines...let's not forget some of the utterly crazy shit that happens in war (from all sides) because weapons where available in a non-combat situation.

Police officers in some areas think everyone could be packing, is willing to pull it out and use it against them in a stressful situation. If they don't think that, they make it clear to you that if you try ANYTHING unexpected they will shoot you. That's the typical tone they take with people who do dumb things behind the wheel and don't follow orders...before they taze them.

Seriously...if you are ever raided by the SWAT team...do NOT move and follow their orders EXACTLY. They will kill you and are trained to do just that against threats without hesitation.

I'd say it's safe to say that if trained, professional people can shoot people in the heat of the moment...Joe Blow would prolly do it, too.

BTW...Turing...you posted that a smaller guy with a gun would be more prepared to handle a larger, more powerful person. That is the exact situation where a smaller guy could "put the fear in" and pull out his piece to wave it around. I apply this theory that people act differently when they're armed and connect it directly to the same social problems as road rage....people have a "shield" between themselves and the target of their anger...therefore they're more liberated (like booze) in their reactions...so they scream at people sitting in traffic but would act perfectly normal on the street or in a social situation if someone bumped into them or cut in line at a queue.

Whenever I'm walking down the street and me and another person "mirror" passing movements and can't progress for a second or two...I laugh. Most people do. But in traffic...that person might get mad, scream, give me the finger or actually try to do something stupid. I think a weapon adds that same "shield" safety blanket of lessened critical thinking and can promote stupidity and unintended violence to new levels.

So fuck you.