PC gaming and mapping (split thread)
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Silicone_Milk
- Posts: 2237
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:49 pm
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+JuggerNaut+
- Posts: 22175
- Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:00 am
Lol.
I must admit I have hardly ever played q4 online yet. I lacked the hardware to do so for a long time, but the problem now is that I know nobody who plays q4 online - and I prefer playing with at least a few people I know in general. Everybody seems to hate it. And I must admit that I also think it has no aesthetics, especially when compared to doom3, though they share the same engine.
The lack of real bots (yeah, I know, there's sabot and q4max and blah, but anyways) also prevents many noob players from the chance to get some offline training before they get pwned on the online servers imo.
The engine has some interesting things to offer though, so I'll give it a try in the future (after those exams and spirit3ctf1) even though the game is dead.
I must admit I have hardly ever played q4 online yet. I lacked the hardware to do so for a long time, but the problem now is that I know nobody who plays q4 online - and I prefer playing with at least a few people I know in general. Everybody seems to hate it. And I must admit that I also think it has no aesthetics, especially when compared to doom3, though they share the same engine.
The lack of real bots (yeah, I know, there's sabot and q4max and blah, but anyways) also prevents many noob players from the chance to get some offline training before they get pwned on the online servers imo.
The engine has some interesting things to offer though, so I'll give it a try in the future (after those exams and spirit3ctf1) even though the game is dead.
[color=#FFFFFF][url=http://maps.rcmd.org]my FPS maps[/url][/color]
Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies!
So what game is a good idea to map for? I've only been looking at Q4 and since there is a consensus that the game is dead I'm thinking there might be someplace else with more activity. Tools like Gtk seem alittle outdated, now I probably need to learn how to do UV maps (although I should have before), 3D modeling in 3dsmax/maya/lightwave for details and how to create normal/bump/light maps for textures, etc. It seems the tools for a mapper to use have increased, therefore requiring more work for added variety.
I guess I'm just curious where all the action has moved on to. Is Q4 a good platform to reintroduce myself into the new form that mapping has taken shape? Or is there a better place to start?
Also, since I've been out of it for a good while I would like to know the status of Q3 mapping in general (for fun) - is there any need, I mean are there any people still interested in good Q3maps?
Thanks for the replies!
So what game is a good idea to map for? I've only been looking at Q4 and since there is a consensus that the game is dead I'm thinking there might be someplace else with more activity. Tools like Gtk seem alittle outdated, now I probably need to learn how to do UV maps (although I should have before), 3D modeling in 3dsmax/maya/lightwave for details and how to create normal/bump/light maps for textures, etc. It seems the tools for a mapper to use have increased, therefore requiring more work for added variety.
I guess I'm just curious where all the action has moved on to. Is Q4 a good platform to reintroduce myself into the new form that mapping has taken shape? Or is there a better place to start?
Also, since I've been out of it for a good while I would like to know the status of Q3 mapping in general (for fun) - is there any need, I mean are there any people still interested in good Q3maps?
Last edited by Jemcdv on Tue May 15, 2007 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Well yeah, I may just do that. I have this unfinished map that I left a long time ago that is pretty and pink. Either that or port it to Q4.Fjoggs wrote:Q3 of course. :X
Yeah, that too. However, I haven't played any PC games since Q3. I recently got Q4 because someone gave it with a PC I bought.dichtfux wrote:I think it's a good idea to map for the games you like and play yourself.TheTruthfulLiar wrote:So what game is a good idea to map for?
I've been in the MAC zone for quite some time now. I still have a mac laptop but it is busted. So now, after converting back to using a PC desktop I'm interested again.
Last edited by Jemcdv on Tue May 15, 2007 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really liked Fable for X-Box, but don't think mapping is going to be a likely one for Fable 2.Foo wrote:I would advise getting back into some PC gaming then making the choice after that...
Any recommendations for something Quakey? Or at least that has a pretty good map community base like Q3 used to? Or is that pretty much impossible...
That game, Fear, looked cool. Might look into FarCry but heard mapping for that is cheesy. I'm not much of a UT person either, except SP was fun in the original Unreal.
Honestly, I'm asking because the people I know aren't really gamers anymore. And if they are, have moved to X-Box 360 or so.
Last edited by Jemcdv on Tue May 15, 2007 9:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
:icon14:TheTruthfulLiar wrote:Any recommendations for something Quakey?
That's really a matter of taste, but I still like q3 best (especially cpma).
You could also have a look at sites like lvl to see what other people are doing atm.
[color=#FFFFFF][url=http://maps.rcmd.org]my FPS maps[/url][/color]
If you don't feel like playing the games for the sake of playing the games, I don't think you'll find much satisfaction in mapping for them.TheTruthfulLiar wrote:I really liked Fable for X-Box, but don't think mapping is going to be a likely one for Fable 2.Foo wrote:I would advise getting back into some PC gaming then making the choice after that...
Any recommendations for something Quakey? Or at least that has a pretty good map community base like Q3 used to? Or is that pretty much impossible...
That game, Fear, looked cool. Might look into FarCry but heard mapping for that is cheesy. I'm not much of a UT person either, except SP was fun in the original Unreal.
Honestly, I'm asking because the people I know aren't really gamers anymore. And if they are, have moved to X-Box 360 or so.
If you're going to pick them up and play them solely to see if you want to map for them, I dunno what to tell you... I can't conceive of approaching games from that angle. All the mappers I've ever known have primarily loved the games they mapped for. Without that I think the whole thing would be kinda soulless.
convince yourself that the ridiculous "strong ammo/weak ammo" system doesn't exist and then map for War§ow
0.3 just dropped http://warsow.net
0.3 just dropped http://warsow.net
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spookmineer
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:00 am
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Silicone_Milk
- Posts: 2237
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:49 pm
Be warned! Major rant coming up....
I think the problem for old school mappers, planning on returning, is that the old community has splintered. Some left because they simply didn't care anymore, some got hired, some switched to other games, etc. What's left is just a small shadow of what once was. Still, one tries to hold on, to that, which is familiar.
The reasons for the current state of the community are of up for debate. Did ID's lack of support undermine it's potential? Were the last two games simply too mediocre? Are the old school gameplay mechanics overshadowed by more succesfull franchises? The list of possibilities is enormous and who are we, to judge, which point is valid?
Or did mapping just become too hard to get in to? Nowadays you need to know a modelling application, you need to know how to make textures and other assets, mapping itself has become far more advanced. Simply loading up an editor just doesn't cut it anymore. Are newbies put of by this? Does it take too much time for an amateur mapper to create something worthwhile? Who knows these things?
People like to point fingers to a cause. Lately there has been a lot of discussions regarding competitive and none competitive mapping. Can one blame the competitive scene for the lack of visual interesting maps? Can one blame more visual oriented mappers, knowing that there stuff won't be played or get a lot of feedback, for not trying anymore?
I've been lurking in the ID community for a couple of years now. I'm not familiar with other mapping communities so I cannot say if the above only applies to the ID community. Be that as it may, if you decide to forget the above and just map, there's one good point to consider.
As Foo mentioned, if you don't play the game, or like it, how can one motivate himself to even map for it? Since both Doom 3 and Quake 4 doesn't have it's fair share of fans, due to the disappointment of fans by both titles, what encouragement is left to even bother?
Sure, you map because you like it. You make things the way you like it. But still, almost every mapper needs some sort of feedback or recognition to motivate him to go on. If this is practically none existent, what's there to map for in the ID community? Ofcourse we got good old Quake 3, but that's just a tiny fragment of what it once was.
Should we wait for ET:QW, RTCW 2 and the new Id project? Should we move on and leave behind that, which is so familiar to us? I don't know guys. But I know the last 2 ID games didn't fascinate me as much as Quake 3 did. I can't be arsed to play them online or offline and although there is great potential for MP maps or SP maps, the lack of interest from the community, the competitive and none competitive seperation and the coming of other promosing titles, just doesn't motivate me to load up an editor.
So there isn't anything at this moment, in this community, I consider worth mapping for. Still I refuse to go on because I want to maintain that, which is, familiar. Besides that, I'm clueless as to where to go and which game to map for. I guess you can say I'm stuck in the middle with no mapping going on and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I think the problem for old school mappers, planning on returning, is that the old community has splintered. Some left because they simply didn't care anymore, some got hired, some switched to other games, etc. What's left is just a small shadow of what once was. Still, one tries to hold on, to that, which is familiar.
The reasons for the current state of the community are of up for debate. Did ID's lack of support undermine it's potential? Were the last two games simply too mediocre? Are the old school gameplay mechanics overshadowed by more succesfull franchises? The list of possibilities is enormous and who are we, to judge, which point is valid?
Or did mapping just become too hard to get in to? Nowadays you need to know a modelling application, you need to know how to make textures and other assets, mapping itself has become far more advanced. Simply loading up an editor just doesn't cut it anymore. Are newbies put of by this? Does it take too much time for an amateur mapper to create something worthwhile? Who knows these things?
People like to point fingers to a cause. Lately there has been a lot of discussions regarding competitive and none competitive mapping. Can one blame the competitive scene for the lack of visual interesting maps? Can one blame more visual oriented mappers, knowing that there stuff won't be played or get a lot of feedback, for not trying anymore?
I've been lurking in the ID community for a couple of years now. I'm not familiar with other mapping communities so I cannot say if the above only applies to the ID community. Be that as it may, if you decide to forget the above and just map, there's one good point to consider.
As Foo mentioned, if you don't play the game, or like it, how can one motivate himself to even map for it? Since both Doom 3 and Quake 4 doesn't have it's fair share of fans, due to the disappointment of fans by both titles, what encouragement is left to even bother?
Sure, you map because you like it. You make things the way you like it. But still, almost every mapper needs some sort of feedback or recognition to motivate him to go on. If this is practically none existent, what's there to map for in the ID community? Ofcourse we got good old Quake 3, but that's just a tiny fragment of what it once was.
Should we wait for ET:QW, RTCW 2 and the new Id project? Should we move on and leave behind that, which is so familiar to us? I don't know guys. But I know the last 2 ID games didn't fascinate me as much as Quake 3 did. I can't be arsed to play them online or offline and although there is great potential for MP maps or SP maps, the lack of interest from the community, the competitive and none competitive seperation and the coming of other promosing titles, just doesn't motivate me to load up an editor.
So there isn't anything at this moment, in this community, I consider worth mapping for. Still I refuse to go on because I want to maintain that, which is, familiar. Besides that, I'm clueless as to where to go and which game to map for. I guess you can say I'm stuck in the middle with no mapping going on and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Inf - Leaving in it's torturous wake nothing but vicious, cannabalistic, mutated, radiated and horribly disfigured hordes of satanic killers!
You've got some interesting points (or questions) there, Infernis.
I returned (if you can call it like that because I didn't really publish anything the first time I started q3 mapping some years ago) to q3 mapping about 10 months ago, when I started playing q3 again.
D3 and q4 were there at that time, but I didn't have the hardware to run them, I didn't play them, I didn't care. I Had a look at the screenies of q4 maps posted here at q3w of course.
I don't think it's IDs lack of support that keeps people away from d3/q4 MP (they've got the iddevnet, linux builds they offer, editor and stuff, CMP, quakecon, demos for d/l, ...), it's more that the games (especially q4) are rather mediocre imo.
I played through d3 on my PC when it came out (but that box broke soon afterwards and I was left with a much slower laptop). I must say that I was really impressed when I first saw d3 and I really liked the SP mode and thought: great engine. I think it's a great SP game, the first one that deserved the title "breath-taking", especially when played alone (or with a good friend and some beer) at night in a dark room, with good speakers turned up loud. D3 only made sense when you played at the hard difficulty setting though, otherwise you were'nt really afraid of the monsters and it was kind of pointless.
Many comments I read online suggest that many people didn't like it, but I really did. It was great fun, but that's for SP only.
I never really tested MP because my PC was too slow for that, but all the maps I saw were pitch black like the SP stuff and I wondered "Who is supposed to play them? Maybe noone, q4 will be for MP."
When I got q4 and new hardware, I was really disappointed. The single player was boring and I forced myself to play through the game because I had bought it. In MP, movement sucked, it was slow AND ugly. All walls (textures) looked to me as if they were made of plastic painted with glossy paint. No bots. I just thought omg and quit.
ID improved some things with the point releases, but they were a bit late. I think it was really the games.
Though mapping has become harder to get into I wouldn't say that's a major point because you can really do great stuff with the new tools what wasn't possible before. And if people really like something, they are willing to invest lots of time (programming comes to my mind, it took me much more time to get sth done there than it took me to build my first map) if the result is worth it - and this includes the game it was made for.
It's true: you have to invest more time to build a good d3-engine map than to build a good q3-engine map and this will keep people with little time from trying. And it makes me wonder whether it's worth it for a game like q4. I decided I'll make a q4 map mainly because I wanted to give the engine and the stuff it has to offer a try and to stay/become "up to date". It's been lying around my HDD for some weeks now.
There's cool maps out there for q4 now, but when I see all those beautifull screenshots (like the ones in this thread) all I think is " Nice screenshot.", I never think "I would really like to play that map in q4 right now! Where's the download link?!".
Waiting for the next games sounds unsatisfactory (I want to map!) and the hardware problem will strike again once ET:QW and FarCry2 show up...
So I'll stick to what I play: q3.
I returned (if you can call it like that because I didn't really publish anything the first time I started q3 mapping some years ago) to q3 mapping about 10 months ago, when I started playing q3 again.
D3 and q4 were there at that time, but I didn't have the hardware to run them, I didn't play them, I didn't care. I Had a look at the screenies of q4 maps posted here at q3w of course.
I don't think it's IDs lack of support that keeps people away from d3/q4 MP (they've got the iddevnet, linux builds they offer, editor and stuff, CMP, quakecon, demos for d/l, ...), it's more that the games (especially q4) are rather mediocre imo.
I played through d3 on my PC when it came out (but that box broke soon afterwards and I was left with a much slower laptop). I must say that I was really impressed when I first saw d3 and I really liked the SP mode and thought: great engine. I think it's a great SP game, the first one that deserved the title "breath-taking", especially when played alone (or with a good friend and some beer) at night in a dark room, with good speakers turned up loud. D3 only made sense when you played at the hard difficulty setting though, otherwise you were'nt really afraid of the monsters and it was kind of pointless.
Many comments I read online suggest that many people didn't like it, but I really did. It was great fun, but that's for SP only.
I never really tested MP because my PC was too slow for that, but all the maps I saw were pitch black like the SP stuff and I wondered "Who is supposed to play them? Maybe noone, q4 will be for MP."
When I got q4 and new hardware, I was really disappointed. The single player was boring and I forced myself to play through the game because I had bought it. In MP, movement sucked, it was slow AND ugly. All walls (textures) looked to me as if they were made of plastic painted with glossy paint. No bots. I just thought omg and quit.
ID improved some things with the point releases, but they were a bit late. I think it was really the games.
Though mapping has become harder to get into I wouldn't say that's a major point because you can really do great stuff with the new tools what wasn't possible before. And if people really like something, they are willing to invest lots of time (programming comes to my mind, it took me much more time to get sth done there than it took me to build my first map) if the result is worth it - and this includes the game it was made for.
It's true: you have to invest more time to build a good d3-engine map than to build a good q3-engine map and this will keep people with little time from trying. And it makes me wonder whether it's worth it for a game like q4. I decided I'll make a q4 map mainly because I wanted to give the engine and the stuff it has to offer a try and to stay/become "up to date". It's been lying around my HDD for some weeks now.
There's cool maps out there for q4 now, but when I see all those beautifull screenshots (like the ones in this thread) all I think is " Nice screenshot.", I never think "I would really like to play that map in q4 right now! Where's the download link?!".
Waiting for the next games sounds unsatisfactory (I want to map!) and the hardware problem will strike again once ET:QW and FarCry2 show up...
So I'll stick to what I play: q3.
[color=#FFFFFF][url=http://maps.rcmd.org]my FPS maps[/url][/color]
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Silicone_Milk
- Posts: 2237
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:49 pm
The issue about the community fragment and lack of feedback has kept me from finishing my latest map for Quake 3 (that and the fact that I lost the .map file for it after wiping my harddrive and not backing it up heh)
I've since moved on to a new hobby: Programming.
Still maintaining my love for Quake 3 but also a love for that which would be considered "next-gen" I've been focusing my programming on combining the two. The difference between this project and other "updates" to the quake 3 source is that what I've been working on is written in C++ and isn't simply a modified Q3 source. It's its own source inspired by Q3's.
I've been looking for the old feel of the Quake 3 community in 1999-2002 (maybe even to 2004) but I've yet to find anything that even closely resembles what Q3 once was. It was for that reason that I started my own engine as previously mentioned. It'll take a ton of time to complete but once finished I can interact with a larger community - gamers in general. This has really motivated to get work done so I can show something off eventually to whoever's willing to look. I've found many interested people at map-center and gamedev.net and they've been quite inspiring.
Personally I think it's the flood of new FPS games that are taking attention away from iD and distributing it amongst themselves. Because of this there's a fragment of a community around each game but not a strong one on any particular title.
Im hoping the release of ET:QW and Crysis will bring back a new wave of modifiers and a new community will spring up.
I've since moved on to a new hobby: Programming.
Still maintaining my love for Quake 3 but also a love for that which would be considered "next-gen" I've been focusing my programming on combining the two. The difference between this project and other "updates" to the quake 3 source is that what I've been working on is written in C++ and isn't simply a modified Q3 source. It's its own source inspired by Q3's.
I've been looking for the old feel of the Quake 3 community in 1999-2002 (maybe even to 2004) but I've yet to find anything that even closely resembles what Q3 once was. It was for that reason that I started my own engine as previously mentioned. It'll take a ton of time to complete but once finished I can interact with a larger community - gamers in general. This has really motivated to get work done so I can show something off eventually to whoever's willing to look. I've found many interested people at map-center and gamedev.net and they've been quite inspiring.
Personally I think it's the flood of new FPS games that are taking attention away from iD and distributing it amongst themselves. Because of this there's a fragment of a community around each game but not a strong one on any particular title.
Im hoping the release of ET:QW and Crysis will bring back a new wave of modifiers and a new community will spring up.
well I hate to be the sour grapes guy, but the kind of mod communities that quake 1/2/3 (and other titles of their eras) enjoyed will never, ever happen again
making games is just too involved these days--what used to take one guy to build now takes a dozen guys, all from different disciplines
it's never going back to the way it was, either
couple that sad reality with the fact that pc gaming is on the decline in general, and, welll... sour grapes
like I said, War§ow is probably your best bet if you want a real mod community and a real community of players
making games is just too involved these days--what used to take one guy to build now takes a dozen guys, all from different disciplines
it's never going back to the way it was, either
couple that sad reality with the fact that pc gaming is on the decline in general, and, welll... sour grapes
like I said, War§ow is probably your best bet if you want a real mod community and a real community of players
This is a myth that's been perpetuating for years, along the same lines as the 'OMG new generation of consoles is even more powerful than a PC!' which has been going on since... well, NES days, and has never turned into truth.couple that sad reality with the fact that pc gaming is on the decline in general, and, welll... sour grapes
PC gaming is as big as it ever was. You can't conveniently ignore the big players like Counterstrike and WoW on the multiplayer front, or the quiet but massive communities surrounding some singleplayer games like Civ and Flight Sim.
FPS gaming? Starting to spread far more evenly across the platforms as consoles become a feasible basis for them, but PC gaming in general? Nah. Though the fragmentation being seen in the constantly increasing range of PC titles produces a thinning effect in individual game communities that you don't get on consoles as they move from generation to generation.