Should gay men be able to legally adopt children?

[LawL]

My answer is no.

The ability to accept and understand homosexual male couples as normal people with an alternate sexual preference is something that only a mature mind is capable of. And by mature I mean mature in age. Even assuming that, there are many adults in society who can never accept homosexual males as anything other than sick freaks.

The schooling years are perhaps the most important years of a child's life, and a child who spends 12 of the most important years of their life being represented by gay parents is going to be subjected to vilification on a horrific scale. There is virtually not a child in existence who would accept such a scenario, and school children can be relentlessly cruel.

I believe a child adopted by a homosexual male couple will inevitably suffer at such a grand scale that their psychology would be damaged to a point of no return, and for this reason alone homosexual male couples should not be allowed to adopt.

What's your opinion?

[Maiden]

why not, geoff did.

[LawL]

His children would have issues regardless of ill-treatment at school.

[Maiden]

what about rug munchers?

[Foo]

Good question. I think I would rank it in preference ahead of children being in foster care.

Regarding persecutuon - There are children out there today being raised by mentally retarded parental figures, cripples, lesbian couples... Somehow we find lesbian couples more acceptable than gay male couples. Presumably an indication of our male-dominant society, who knows. Those children are teased, sure. However, I think the level to which you anticipate such persecution with a gay couple is overblown.

Secondly, the persecution you suggest would primarily be a function of novelty. Under the current circumstances, it would certainly be the case. With time, and wider adoption of children by gay couples, it would become less notable, just as gay wedding do, and society including children would come to factor it into general life.

I think the initial shock of the circumstance is not a sufficient detraction from the possibility of giving an abandoned child a loving home.

[LawL]

what about rug munchers?

That's a different issue. One i'm undecided about. I assume school children would react in a different manner to lesbian couples.

[LawL]

Good question. I think I would rank it in preference ahead of children being in foster care.

Regarding persecutuon - There are children out there today being raised by mentally retarded parental figures, cripples, lesbian couples... Somehow we find lesbian couples more acceptable than gay male couples. Presumably an indication of our male-dominant society, who knows. Those children are teased, sure. However, I think the level to which you anticipate such persecution with a gay couple is overblown.

Secondly, the persecution you suggest would primarily be a function of novelty. Under the current circumstances, it would certainly be the case. With time, and wider adoption of children by gay couples, it would become less notable, just as gay wedding do, and society including children would come to factor it into general life.

I think the initial shock of the circumstance is not a sufficient detraction from the possibility of giving an abandoned child a loving home.

I think gay men are perceived as less acceptable than gay women simply because gay women don't stray as far from what society perceives as the stereotypical role of a person of their gender, as gay men do.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think my belief as to the treatment a child of gay male parents would receive is incorrect.

Perhaps it is true that with time such a practise would become more accepted, but I just can't ever see it being accepted to the point that a large scale of vilification would not be received on the child's behalf. Homosexuality is supposedly accepted in most countries today. But even in those countries, imagine the scenario of two men walking into a pub which isn't a designated gay pub and start kissing one another. What do you think would happen? They would get assaulted. This is the actual reality.

I don't believe it's an initial shock, too many people simply cannot understand or accept homosexuality as it goes against their instinct of heterosexuality, and children are the last people to be capable of this.

The same child who would perhaps vilify another child at school may in their later years come to understand that their actions were wrong. But this can only be achieved by a mature mind.

[seremtan]

what about unicorns? should unicorns be allowed to adopt gay children?

[Foo]

I think gay men are perceived as less acceptable than gay women simply because gay women don't stray as far from what society perceives as the stereotypical role of a person of their gender, as gay men do.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think my belief as to the treatment a child of gay male parents would receive is incorrect.

Tricky this. We've almost immediately run into subjective opinion which we probaby won't be able to reconcile.

Perhaps it is true that with time such a practise would become more accepted, but I just can't ever see it being accepted to the point that a large scale of vilification would not be received on the child's behalf. Homosexuality is supposedly accepted in most countries today. But even in those countries, imagine the scenario of two men walking into a pub which isn't a designated gay pub and start kissing one another. What do you think would happen? They would get assaulted. This is the actual reality.

Where do you live? From my perspective, this isn't the case, and I consider my surroundings to be somewhat 'average' for the UK. I've seen gay men kissing in pubs and clubs I've frequented in Sheffield, and it's barely caused remark, let alone tension. For the record, I don't frequent any of Sheffield's specific gay bars, although I'm aware of them.

And before it's suggested - Sheffield is no gay capitol. At it's peak Sheffield has housed 3 recognised Gay bars, during the 90s. I would suggest Brighton as a far more 'Gay Friendly' city.

I don't believe it's an initial shock, too many people simply cannot understand or accept homosexuality as it goes against their instinct of heterosexuality, and children are the last people to be capable of this.

For interests sake, have you ever seen the South Park episode with the South Park town flag of the black stick man being lynched?

The same child who would perhaps vilify another child at school may in their later years come to understand that their actions were wrong. But this can only be achieved by a mature mind.

I'm still not sure I agree with your reasoning... irrespective of whether it's correct or not. We can both accept that children with vision impairments will receive sometimes very extreme ridicule at school for wearing 'beer bottle' glasses to school. I was never quite in that league but I attended with a lot of kids who were. Does this logically result that children with such ailments should be forbidden to wear them at school?

Again, we're back to the balance... I don't think any level of ridicule dispensed by peers would justify denying a child a loving home.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

I knew it was just a matter of time before fLaw started spewing his intolerance more directly. He's been dropping little turds ever since he's arrived.

No wonder you don't like the idea of a Bill of Rights. :icon27:

[booker]

Good question. I think I would rank it in preference ahead of children being in foster care.

Regarding persecutuon - There are children out there today being raised by mentally retarded parental figures, cripples, lesbian couples... Somehow we find lesbian couples more acceptable than gay male couples. Presumably an indication of our male-dominant society, who knows. Those children are teased, sure. However, I think the level to which you anticipate such persecution with a gay couple is overblown.

Secondly, the persecution you suggest would primarily be a function of novelty. Under the current circumstances, it would certainly be the case. With time, and wider adoption of children by gay couples, it would become less notable, just as gay wedding do, and society including children would come to factor it into general life.

I think the initial shock of the circumstance is not a sufficient detraction from the possibility of giving an abandoned child a loving home.

:icon14:

[[xeno]Julios]

The ability to accept and understand homosexual male couples as normal people with an alternate sexual preference is something that only a mature mind is capable of. And by mature I mean mature in age.

As foo points out, the distaste of homosexuality is primarily a function of culture, rather than maturity. It takes maturity to overcome cultural prejudice, sure, but cultural factors are primary here.

I believe a child adopted by a homosexual male couple will inevitably suffer at such a grand scale that their psychology would be damaged to a point of no return, and for this reason alone homosexual male couples should not be allowed to adopt.

This policy you advocate would simply entrench the problem further. By forbidding such adoption, culture becomes less accepting of alternate sexuality, which makes the stigmas even worse. Your policy holds water if we decide to succumb to cultural prejudice, but that kinda defeats the project of our evolution as moral and rational creatures.

Perhaps it is true that with time such a practise would become more accepted, but I just can't ever see it being accepted to the point that a large scale of vilification would not be received on the child's behalf. Homosexuality is supposedly accepted in most countries today. But even in those countries, imagine the scenario of two men walking into a pub which isn't a designated gay pub and start kissing one another. What do you think would happen? They would get assaulted. This is the actual reality.

Your opinion here is based on your own experiences and insights into a culture during your short stay here on this planet. I think it premature to generalize to all societies and times that we will never overcome our prejudices.

I don't believe it's an initial shock, too many people simply cannot understand or accept homosexuality as it goes against their instinct of heterosexuality, and children are the last people to be capable of this.

I'm not so sure that children's heterosexual instincts would cause them to ostracize gays. I think children's prejudice towards homosexuals is largely a function of them modeling adults' prejudice, or modeling institutionalized discrimination.

[LawL]

I think gay men are perceived as less acceptable than gay women simply because gay women don't stray as far from what society perceives as the stereotypical role of a person of their gender, as gay men do.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think my belief as to the treatment a child of gay male parents would receive is incorrect.

Tricky this. We've almost immediately run into subjective opinion which we probaby won't be able to reconcile.

Perhaps it is true that with time such a practise would become more accepted, but I just can't ever see it being accepted to the point that a large scale of vilification would not be received on the child's behalf. Homosexuality is supposedly accepted in most countries today. But even in those countries, imagine the scenario of two men walking into a pub which isn't a designated gay pub and start kissing one another. What do you think would happen? They would get assaulted. This is the actual reality.

Where do you live? From my perspective, this isn't the case, and I consider my surroundings to be somewhat 'average' for the UK. I've seen gay men kissing in pubs and clubs I've frequented in Sheffield, and it's barely caused remark, let alone tension. For the record, I don't frequent any of Sheffield's specific gay bars, although I'm aware of them.

And before it's suggested - Sheffield is no gay capitol. At it's peak Sheffield has housed 3 recognised Gay bars, during the 90s. I would suggest Brighton as a far more 'Gay Friendly' city.

I don't believe it's an initial shock, too many people simply cannot understand or accept homosexuality as it goes against their instinct of heterosexuality, and children are the last people to be capable of this.

For interests sake, have you ever seen the South Park episode with the South Park town flag of the black stick man being lynched?

The same child who would perhaps vilify another child at school may in their later years come to understand that their actions were wrong. But this can only be achieved by a mature mind.

I'm still not sure I agree with your reasoning... irrespective of whether it's correct or not. We can both accept that children with vision impairments will receive sometimes very extreme ridicule at school for wearing 'beer bottle' glasses to school. I was never quite in that league but I attended with a lot of kids who were. Does this logically result that children with such ailments should be forbidden to wear them at school?

Again, we're back to the balance... I don't think any level of ridicule dispensed by peers would justify denying a child a loving home.

I live in a city specifically built to accomodate politics, so as you can imagine it's an extremely PC area. I do believe still that the majority of areas would be intolerant of openly gay activities.

I haven't seen the south park episode you speak of, I haven't watched an episode in a few years actually.

I think the level of ridicule one would receive via the wearing of glasses compared to having gay male parents is not comparable.

That being said, I do consider your point of providing a child a loving home.

[Canis]

My answer is no.

The ability to accept and understand homosexual male couples as normal people with an alternate sexual preference is something that only a mature mind is capable of. And by mature I mean mature in age. Even assuming that, there are many adults in society who can never accept homosexual males as anything other than sick freaks.

The schooling years are perhaps the most important years of a child's life, and a child who spends 12 of the most important years of their life being represented by gay parents is going to be subjected to vilification on a horrific scale. There is virtually not a child in existence who would accept such a scenario, and school children can be relentlessly cruel.

I believe a child adopted by a homosexual male couple will inevitably suffer at such a grand scale that their psychology would be damaged to a point of no return, and for this reason alone homosexual male couples should not be allowed to adopt.

What's your opinion?

If sexual orientation/activity is what will screw someone over then half this world shouldnt have kids. Folks get divorced, cheat on each other, abuse each other, among other things, and the kids suffer greatly yet are not "protected" from this. Homosexual parents will not psychologically dammage a child, but will just cause there to be differences. For instance, the kid will be more open to homosexuality, but this will not change the kid into being a gay person at all if the kid isnt healthily and naturally gay to begin with. It also wont influence him to become a murderer or any other form of bad person. Its all about care, support, and proper mentoring as a parent that gives children the solidity they need to succeed and live happily. This can come from a single parent, heterosexual parents, homosexual parents, or siblings.

I think the prevention of homosexuals from adopting is just societal homophobia kicking in, and nothing else.

[LawL]

I knew it was just a matter of time before fLaw started spewing his intolerance more directly. He's been dropping little turds ever since he's arrived.

No wonder you don't like the idea of a Bill of Rights. :icon27:

Where's the intolerance? You've missed my point completely. As you obviously did in my Bill of Rights thread, in which my point was that Australia is not in need of a Bill of Rights because human rights here are already adequately protected by common law. I actually went to great lengths to point out that I didn't believe any other country should not have one.

I never state that what i'm saying is anything other than my opinion and always keep an open mind in modifying my opinion in light of evidence, which is why I enjoy such discussions and entertain other peoples opinions.

If this is all a little too complex for you then I guess you should just stick to shallow topics in which you can actually comprehend the point which is being made.

[Transient]

As soon as The School Bully™ sees a kid who looks at the floor while they walk, doesn't talk in class, is shy or whatever, the bully will pick on the kid. He'll find a flaw and use it as ammunition to make fun of the kid. It doesn't matter what the flaw is, be it gay parents or funny shoes. On the other hand, if Joe Student™ sees that same kid as outgoing, fun to be with, confident or whatever, then he will gravitate toward him and end up liking the kid, regardless of wheter or not he has funny shoes.

By the time it becomes common knowledge around school that the guy has gay parents, he will have already established his submissive or dominant personality and the information will either provide further ammo for bullies or will roll off his back as his friends defend him. The actual fact that his parents are gay will have little to do with how much he gets picked on.

Plus, any school worth its salt will find out pretty quick if the kid's being made fun of for having gay parents, and since the subject is still considered taboo, the bullies will be quickly put in their place.

[LawL]

My answer is no.

The ability to accept and understand homosexual male couples as normal people with an alternate sexual preference is something that only a mature mind is capable of. And by mature I mean mature in age. Even assuming that, there are many adults in society who can never accept homosexual males as anything other than sick freaks.

The schooling years are perhaps the most important years of a child's life, and a child who spends 12 of the most important years of their life being represented by gay parents is going to be subjected to vilification on a horrific scale. There is virtually not a child in existence who would accept such a scenario, and school children can be relentlessly cruel.

I believe a child adopted by a homosexual male couple will inevitably suffer at such a grand scale that their psychology would be damaged to a point of no return, and for this reason alone homosexual male couples should not be allowed to adopt.

What's your opinion?

If sexual orientation/activity is what will screw someone over then half this world shouldnt have kids. Folks get divorced, cheat on each other, abuse each other, among other things, and the kids suffer greatly yet are not "protected" from this. Homosexual parents will not psychologically dammage a child, but will just cause there to be differences. For instance, the kid will be more open to homosexuality, but this will not change the kid into being a gay person at all if the kid isnt healthily and naturally gay to begin with. It also wont influence him to become a murderer or any other form of bad person. Its all about care, support, and proper mentoring as a parent that gives children the solidity they need to succeed and live happily. This can come from a single parent, heterosexual parents, homosexual parents, or siblings.

I think the prevention of homosexuals from adopting is just societal homophobia kicking in, and nothing else.

It's not the direct sexual orientation or activity of the parents which I believe will have the effect on the child, it's the reaction of the other children during the schooling years which I believe will be the detriment. It's true that divorces have great effect on a child's psychology, yet such circumstance can not be avoided other than the unrealistic action of making it illegal to divorce or seperate.

I'm not saying anything about the gay parents themselves psychologically damaging the child, or making their sexual preference homosexual, or a murderer etc.

The ability to administer the proper care, support and mentoring has no effect on what the child's schooling existence will be like in relation to how they will be treated by their peers.

[LawL]

The actual fact that his parents are gay will have little to do with how much he gets picked on.

I really disagree with this.

[Foo]

The actual fact that his parents are gay will have little to do with how much he gets picked on.

I really disagree with this.

This is both the sticking point, and the issue on which none of us have any statistics or true information to back our perspective up

[LawL]

The actual fact that his parents are gay will have little to do with how much he gets picked on.

I really disagree with this.

This is both the sticking point, and the issue on which none of us have any statistics or true information to back our perspective up

Yeah I know, I'm trying not to repeat myself.

[werldhed]

Bah...that's too much to read right now, so let me say this:

There is no solid argument for any reason why gay men should not be allowed to adopt.

The kids might get teased? Pur-leeeeze.
I tease kids because they like football and the OC. Should football and television be banned?

Kids -- orphans or not -- have many things much worse to worry about.

edit: I'm with Transient, btw. I don't think having gay parents will increase bullying to any large degree.

[plained]

if they are nice poeple and want a kid to pour love into sure why not.

but i mean kids that need a home.

buying kids i doen really know how i feel about it.

[Transient]

The actual fact that his parents are gay will have little to do with how much he gets picked on.

I really disagree with this.

Well there's a hell of a lot more to life than high school, so even if you're right, it's not the end of the world.

Too bad both of us are just spouting opinion, for all that's worth. :icon26:

[LawL]

Nothing wrong with simple opinion!

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

I knew it was just a matter of time before fLaw started spewing his intolerance more directly. He's been dropping little turds ever since he's arrived.

No wonder you don't like the idea of a Bill of Rights. :icon27:

If this is all a little too complex for you then I guess you should just stick to shallow topics in which you can actually comprehend the point which is being made.

says the guy who wants to stop gay men from adopting based on the argument that their kids will be picked on in school...

the same argument was used to oppose inter-racial marriage. Perhaps fat people shouldn't be allowed to have chidren. They might be ridiculed.

:icon26: