CNN Covering 9/11 Discrepancies - really!

[Freakaloin]

satan and the fires of hell in the basement?...

[seremtan]

ok, so i've gone pretty cool on the inside job theory, but i'm gonna need something more that "it happens", especially when the example you give for comparison had an atomic fucking bomb dropped on it

We've got to look at the normal smelting processes to build up some sort of comparison in terms of methods generally used to melt steel. Again we're assuming that the buildings simply fell down due to the (petroleum based) fire.

The two closest processes to the conditions relative to what we're told are;

• Bessemer process
• Open hearth furnace

Both of these methods for smelting make use of air. In principle this does make sense and at face value one could argue that the fundamentals are what kept the steel molten.

Now the problem is two fold (as far as I can see).

• Both methods actually require the controlled introduction and use of air; they don't use the air that's floating around at any given time, it has to be forced into the process. So unless air was somehow being forced through the rubble that's pretty much a no go.
• Both methods require astonishing temperatures to generate the initial melt in the first place, some 1300 degrees C.

This brings us right back to the original question a few posts above regarding what on earth happened there to cause temperatures that high to be produced in the first place?

'Fire' on it's own in uncontrolled situations *generally speaking* can't get hot enough on their own to melt steel. A secondary (or additional) process(es) is (are) always present; the 'forced' introduction of more air/oxygen for example, in order to do that.

The thing is that the fires were apparently going out (hence all the black smoke which is usually associated with it) - there are reports of fireman that made it up there encountering very few big fires. We can also assume that all the jet fuel was burnt up during the initial impact and huge fireball; even if some of it had survived there wouldn't have been enough present to assist in the sustained heat required to melt steel on the collapse and pooling of debris into a concentrated mass; which in of itself, relative to the known 'traditional' smelting processes, can't produce enough heat unassisted to melt steel.

This keeps bringing us back to what melted the steel, or more specifically what processes were involved to produce *sustained* 1300+ C tempretures" capable of doing that?

The more I look into this stuff, the more the 'official story' just doesn't make any sense.

or, put simply, we're looking for something that can cause a steel and concrete structure to collapse and causes loud explosion-like noises. it's a thorny one all right

[Kat]

...or, put simply, we're looking for something that can cause a steel and concrete structure to collapse and causes loud explosion-like noises. it's a thorny one all right

Yes. Mind you people have argued those "explosion like noises" were in fact gass explosions and not demolition explosives; they're a subjective observation. Molten steel is an objective fact so if you can figure out what can cause that, you have at least one foot on the ground.

[R00k]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ma ... gation.htm

Venezuelan Government To Launch International 9/11 Investigation

Billionaire philanthropist Jimmy Walter and WTC survivor William Rodriguez this week embarked on a groundbreaking trip to Caracas Venezuela in which they met with with the President of the Assembly and will soon meet with Venezuelan President himself Hugo Chavez in anticipation of an official Venezuelan government investigation into 9/11.

Rodriguez was the last survivor pulled from the rubble of the north tower of the WTC, and was responsible for all stairwells within the tower. Rodriguez represented family members of 9/11 victims and testified to the 9/11 Commission that bombs were in the north tower but his statements were completely omitted from the official record.

Jimmy Walter has been at the forefront of a world tour to raise awareness about 9/11 and has still yet to receive any response to his million dollar challenge in which he offers a $1 million reward for proof that the trade towers' steel structure was broken apart without explosives.

Rodriguez said that he was told an FBI agent had asked the hotel him and Walter were staying in turn over a list of names of residents. Upon hearing this, the National Assembly provided armed military protection for the entirety of the trip.

[MKJ]

America declares war against Vanezuela.
"Hugo Chavez has been ruling with an iron fist too long", a spokesman said, "Enough is enough! We should bring him down, give him a fair trail and ensure freedom for the Venezuelan people."

[Freakaloin]

that poll closed at 83%...


and i'm still waiting on some real evidence...any real evidence osama had something to do with those attacks...

and rumor has it moussaoui was wearing a stun belt during his trial...

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=304

[GONNAFISTYA]

America declares war against Vanezuela.
"Hugo Chavez has been ruling with an iron fist too long", a spokesman said, "Enough is enough! We should bring him down, give him a fair trail and ensure freedom for the Venezuelan people."

Maybe this will happen sooner than later?

Channel 4 Paints President Chavez As Dictator

[GONNAFISTYA]

and i'm still waiting on some real evidence...any real evidence osama had something to do with those attacks...

Silly boy. Don't you realize you should simply trust your government and take their word for it?








Especially when it comes to wiretapping.

[R00k]

that poll closed at 83%...


and i'm still waiting on some real evidence...any real evidence osama had something to do with those attacks...

and rumor has it moussaoui was wearing a stun belt during his trial...

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=304

It's not a rumor, it was on NBC.

[4days]

America declares war against Vanezuela.
"Hugo Chavez has been ruling with an iron fist too long", a spokesman said, "Enough is enough! We should bring him down, give him a fair trail and ensure freedom for the Venezuelan people."

Maybe this will happen sooner than later?

Channel 4 Paints President Chavez As Dictator

that's the first time i've ever written a letter to a tv show to complain. filthy fucking bastards.

[R00k]

It's sickening.

[seremtan]

America declares war against Vanezuela.
"Hugo Chavez has been ruling with an iron fist too long", a spokesman said, "Enough is enough! We should bring him down, give him a fair trail and ensure freedom for the Venezuelan people."

Maybe this will happen sooner than later?

Channel 4 Paints President Chavez As Dictator

ding!

http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18526

[Pext]

the hassle between chavez and the us is not that new. actually the media setup to make him seem like a bad guy started allready about 3 or 4 years ago.
the main reason is that the constitution he brought to live in 1999 includes that venezuelan oil belongs to the venezuelan government. no private coorporates are allowed.
the usa get 15% of their oil from venezuela. go figure...

[R00k]

I never would have guessed that the National Security guru behind Star Wars is a man after my own heart.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ap ... uspect.htm

Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences, and is one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security.

Bowman worked secretly for the US government on the Star Wars project and was the first to coin the very term in a 1977 secret memo. After Bowman realized that the program was only ever intended to be used as an aggressive and not defensive tool, as part of a plan to initiate a nuclear war with the Soviets, he left the program and campaigned against it.

In an interview with The Alex Jones Show aired nationally on the GCN Radio Network, Bowman (pictured below) stated that at the bare minimum if Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were involved in 9/11 then the government stood down and allowed the attacks to happen. He said it is plausible that the entire chain of military command were unaware of what was taking place and were used as tools by the people pulling the strings behind the attack.

Bowman outlined how the drills on the morning of 9/11 that simulated planes crashing into buildings on the east coast were used as a cover to dupe unwitting air defense personnel into not responding quickly enough to stop the attack.

"The exercises that went on that morning simulating the exact kind of thing that was happening so confused the people in the FAA and NORAD....that they didn't they didn't know what was real and what was part of the exercise," said Bowman

"I think the people who planned and carried out those exercises, they're the ones that should be the object of investigation."

Asked if he could name a prime suspect who was the likely architect behind the attacks, Bowman stated, "If I had to narrow it down to one person....I think my prime suspect would be Dick Cheney."

[seremtan]

that sounds highly plausible tbh. on closer inspection, i'm less convinced by the inside job theories (although i think they raise some worthwhile questions), but the 'active cooperation' theory is looking pretty good

[Ryoki]

Wow, that's the first time i've read about a high placed official (retired but still) speaking words like that.

Vewwy intewesting indeed.

[Ryoki]

that's the first time i've ever written a letter to a tv show to complain. filthy fucking bastards.

Good man.

[Nightshade]

I never would have guessed that the National Security guru behind Star Wars is a man after my own heart.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ap ... uspect.htm

Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences, and is one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security.

Bowman worked secretly for the US government on the Star Wars project and was the first to coin the very term in a 1977 secret memo. After Bowman realized that the program was only ever intended to be used as an aggressive and not defensive tool, as part of a plan to initiate a nuclear war with the Soviets, he left the program and campaigned against it.

In an interview with The Alex Jones Show aired nationally on the GCN Radio Network, Bowman (pictured below) stated that at the bare minimum if Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were involved in 9/11 then the government stood down and allowed the attacks to happen. He said it is plausible that the entire chain of military command were unaware of what was taking place and were used as tools by the people pulling the strings behind the attack.

Bowman outlined how the drills on the morning of 9/11 that simulated planes crashing into buildings on the east coast were used as a cover to dupe unwitting air defense personnel into not responding quickly enough to stop the attack.

"The exercises that went on that morning simulating the exact kind of thing that was happening so confused the people in the FAA and NORAD....that they didn't they didn't know what was real and what was part of the exercise," said Bowman

"I think the people who planned and carried out those exercises, they're the ones that should be the object of investigation."

Asked if he could name a prime suspect who was the likely architect behind the attacks, Bowman stated, "If I had to narrow it down to one person....I think my prime suspect would be Dick Cheney."

From that quote you posted, he's pretty much summarizing my thoughts on the attacks. I DO think that Ollama and crew were the ones that carried out the attacks, but I think the government knew they were coming.

[JulesWinnfield]

ok, so i've gone pretty cool on the inside job theory, but i'm gonna need something more that "it happens", especially when the example you give for comparison had an atomic fucking bomb dropped on it

We've got to look at the normal smelting processes to build up some sort of comparison in terms of methods generally used to melt steel. Again we're assuming that the buildings simply fell down due to the (petroleum based) fire.

The two closest processes to the conditions relative to what we're told are;

• Bessemer process
• Open hearth furnace

Both of these methods for smelting make use of air. In principle this does make sense and at face value one could argue that the fundamentals are what kept the steel molten.

Now the problem is two fold (as far as I can see).

• Both methods actually require the controlled introduction and use of air; they don't use the air that's floating around at any given time, it has to be forced into the process. So unless air was somehow being forced through the rubble that's pretty much a no go.
• Both methods require astonishing temperatures to generate the initial melt in the first place, some 1300 degrees C.

This brings us right back to the original question a few posts above regarding what on earth happened there to cause temperatures that high to be produced in the first place?

'Fire' on it's own in uncontrolled situations *generally speaking* can't get hot enough on their own to melt steel. A secondary (or additional) process(es) is (are) always present; the 'forced' introduction of more air/oxygen for example, in order to do that.

The thing is that the fires were apparently going out (hence all the black smoke which is usually associated with it) - there are reports of fireman that made it up there encountering very few big fires. We can also assume that all the jet fuel was burnt up during the initial impact and huge fireball; even if some of it had survived there wouldn't have been enough present to assist in the sustained heat required to melt steel on the collapse and pooling of debris into a concentrated mass; which in of itself, relative to the known 'traditional' smelting processes, can't produce enough heat unassisted to melt steel.

This keeps bringing us back to what melted the steel, or more specifically what processes were involved to produce *sustained* 1300+ C tempretures" capable of doing that?

The more I look into this stuff, the more the 'official story' just doesn't make any sense.

One school of thought says that if something can't be adequatly described in a few sentences it's overly complicated, but a lot of things just don't work like this.

Something you're not considering, jet fuel doesn't combust as a liquid. It requires oxygen (for fire obviously) to burn, but also, the introduction of oxygen to the fuel (which in an engine is highly controlled) chemically changes the state from a non-combustible liquid to highly combustible liquid. Also, the amount of oxygen determines how 'rich' the result of the state change is - which doesn't really change the heat produced, but determines how thorough the burn is (and indirectly how long). Assuming a large quantity of jet fuel on the plane (which is what we've always heard about the destinations chosen), combined with a relative closed space in which the air and ejected fuel can easily react (heavier than air after all), you're no longer working with smelting processes that use traditional 'air'. Jet fuel burns at 1800F on average (can be much higher given the oxygen exposure and confinement) and steel melts 2400F. But, steel significantly starts to soften at 1000F-1500F depending on the composition. Given all of the stresses and weight being supported, this is more than enough to structurally weaken to the point of a collapse - because of the outer skeleton design of the building. Any number of physics simulations could spread the jet fuel through the building via gravity.

Once it collapsed, you've essentially got a dutch oven where the temperature is only going to rise - easily enough to give you molten steel.

Any of these conspiracy theories could be legit - who knows. But for highly complex problems common sense rarely is enough to determine a recreation. I'm not even saying what I said is right and how it happened, there are just too many factors. But it's a legit option that rationally explains a lot of things that aren't addressed by the theories that's supported by the outcome.


RE: WTC7, I seem to remember that they only charged and detonated on the first couple of floors - not the whole bulding. The reasoning behind was given the extensive damage, all they had to do was start the demolition and gravity and inertia would take over. Also, I don't remember seeing demolition explosions on the TV footage suggesting a floor by floor collapse. YMMV.

[R00k]

Yes I understand your point. Similarly, there are dozens of different theories and models which could explain a lot of things that happened that day, that weren't explained by the Commission (although it's hard to find one that explains them all without entering the realm of criminal activity/negligence).

The point is not that there are dozens of theories like this and that most of them seem pretty loopy, the point is that the reason they exist at all stems from a group of government officials who were negligent and corrupt in their duties, to the point that it should be a criminal offense, and they were all hand-picked by the White House to explain away a national tragedy.

I could refute some of the points you made, as well as provide some occurrences they don't account for, but I know the specifics weren't the point of your post and I get a little tired talking about all the details repeatedly.

I don't know where you got the idea that they only charged and detonated the first couple of floors of WTC7 though - I haven't heard or read that anywhere.

[R00k]

From that quote you posted, he's pretty much summarizing my thoughts on the attacks. I DO think that Ollama and crew were the ones that carried out the attacks, but I think the government knew they were coming.

We're in the same camp then. He summarizes the way I feel things went down pretty well, and seems to have the same questions I do.

The problem is, in order for the government to "let" the attacks happen, our world-class military had to have been obstructed in some way. That's when you notice the terrorism drills going on, extra blips in FAA radar screens, etc. Someone had to be responsible for all that occurring -- 3 to 4 terrorism drills on the same day, effectively crippling our defenses and faking out our pilots, don't just happen at random. On the contrary, there are a lot of operating procedures in place to prevent things like that from happening.

[Foo]

How could you not have a word-class military.

Wouldn't a military that isn't world-class merely be a load of jokers possibly with guns?

Wait...

[Freakaloin]

there r 4 different ways the govt could have been complicit with the 911 attacks(possibly 5)...only 1 way to be not...odds r against the morons...

[R00k]

It's got nothing to do with odds, Fruitcakealoin.

[Freakaloin]

EVERYTHING HAS TO DO WITH ODDS DIPSHIT...