This fucking scares me...

[Nightshade]

As I said earlier, I've been held up at gunpoint. If someone is sticking a gun in your face and you reach for yours, you're going to die.
The point is not that it's a wallet I'd be losing, it's the fact that some random fucking scumbag is threatening to deprive my daughter of her father and my wife of her husband. He's threatening to kill me over something I'd give him if he asked for it.

Yes, that's worth killing someone over. I cannot understand what sort of mental gymnastics one would have to go through to think otherwise.

[Foo]

I don't follow. You just said "If someone is sticking a gun in your face and you reach for yours, you're going to die".

So how would having your own gun benefit you?

Also, can you address the point about tazers made above?

[Nightshade]

I don't follow. You just said "If someone is sticking a gun in your face and you reach for yours, you're going to die".

So how would having your own gun benefit you?

Also, can you address the point about tazers made above?

I'm merely pointing out that there are certain situations in which carrying a gun would not mean that you'd instantly blast someone.

I did address the point about tazers. I don't think that they're a bad idea and I'd consider carrying one. However, gun trumps tazer, and I doubt that many muggers will be carrying a tazer.

Don't get me wrong here, I think that there are many people that shouldn't be allowed to have guns, because the world is chock full of idiots. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility, one that requires a lot of training and good judgement.

[MKJ]

well the bolt from a tazer is as fast (or nmearly as) as a bullet from a gun. so if you have the time to grab your gun and shoot the other guy before he does you, the same would hold true for a tazer innit.

now i agree with your last paragraph. i personally am not opposed to guns in general, as long as theyre in the hands of competent, disciplined and fully trained people (e.g. policemen). the problem with an open gun law is the fact that pretty much any dorko can get one from 18 and up. 18, ffs those tostesterone-vessels will smash windows and/or hospitalize eachother over a pair of tits.. who knows what these loaded guns could do with actual loaded guns

[Ryoki]

As I said earlier, I've been held up at gunpoint.

Me too once, but when we didn't immediately give up our wallet and started talking to him instead, the asshole explained the gun was actually a fake and he ran away

[Geebs]

Approximately 99.9% of all defensive gun uses are not fatal shootings, however -- criminals are usually frightened off, held at bay, or non-fatally wounded. Also, many defensive firearms uses occur away from home.

These are what are known as "made-up facts"

Prove it.

99.9% is always a made-up number.

[Geebs]

How 'bout some maths on the "2.1 million defensive uses of guns a year" stat?

tnf quotes rates of violent crime in the US as about 600 per 100,000 population. The US population is about 300,000,000, giving us 1.8 million violent crimes a year. This gives us about 0.3 million non-violent crimes a year in which a gun is used defensively - so presumably, guns are being used as a measured, proportionate response to littering, jaywalking, public nudity, and parking in a restricted zone by US citizens 300,000 times a year. Smell a rat?

More baseless assumptions.

The assumptions (basic figures) I'm working from are yours and tnf's - so you're saying that your own figures are baseless?

[reefsurfer]

jesus...you can easily see who the americans with gun's are in this thread.

BRAINWASHED!

[MKJ]

as was i held up at gun point (although gun to head was more like it) right in front of my house. it was really weird because it was about 10 feet away from a square that has bars and restaurants and the like where you can eat outside.. i was amazed that they ad the nerve to it so close to such a busy place.
it was really surreal because i was outside for a total of 10 minutes (had to run an errand 1 street away) and i got mugged. after which i was like "uhm.. what just happened? "

[Geebs]

Don't get me wrong here, I think that there are many people that shouldn't be allowed to have guns, because the world is chock full of idiots. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility, one that requires a lot of training and good judgement.

Translation: I approve of gun control

[Nightshade]

These are what are known as "made-up facts"

Prove it.

99.9% is always a made-up number.

Bullshit.

[tnf]

jesus...you can easily see who the americans with gun's are in this thread.

BRAINWASHED!

coming from a guy who is probably scared shitless when a game he is waiting for is delayed, that means a lot.

[Nightshade]

How 'bout some maths on the "2.1 million defensive uses of guns a year" stat?

tnf quotes rates of violent crime in the US as about 600 per 100,000 population. The US population is about 300,000,000, giving us 1.8 million violent crimes a year. This gives us about 0.3 million non-violent crimes a year in which a gun is used defensively - so presumably, guns are being used as a measured, proportionate response to littering, jaywalking, public nudity, and parking in a restricted zone by US citizens 300,000 times a year. Smell a rat?

More baseless assumptions.

The assumptions (basic figures) I'm working from are yours and tnf's - so you're saying that your own figures are baseless?

No, I'm saying that your moronic misinterpretations are baseless.

[tnf]

So should they be illegal? This is what I've been trying to get at...and we could have saved pages of debate here. I've said multiple times that I don't think guns are the end-all-be-all answer to self defense. I said a lot of people that have them shouldn't...or somethign to that effect. Most people I know that carry guns do so because it makes them feel 'tough.' But all that is really irrelevant in this particular debate about this particular law, because GUNS ARE LEGAL HERE. So, that being the case, what do we think about *this* law.

You see, we aren't on completely opposite ideological platforms here. But nobody wanted to address this issue with the acceptance that guns are legal here and then go from there to discuss this law. Instead, the issue devolved into something about gun control in general...which is a perfectly valid area to debate, but beyond the scope of what I wanted to discuss in terms of this particular law.

[Nightshade]

Don't get me wrong here, I think that there are many people that shouldn't be allowed to have guns, because the world is chock full of idiots. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility, one that requires a lot of training and good judgement.

Translation: I approve of gun control

Another moronic misinterpretation. You're failing miserably here, Geebs. Quite frankly I expect a good bit more from an educated man such as yourself. I don not approve of gun control, as it by and large only hinders legitimate gun owners. I believe that training should be mandatory.

MKJ, it's federal law in the US that you must be 21 to own a handgun.

[MKJ]

18 for a shotgun though

A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To purchase a handgun, you must be at least 21 years of age, pursuant to federal law.

still, 21 is still quite young. not as young as 18, and 21 just happens to be the adult age. i think there should be quite an extensive training program you have to take before being allowed to own a gun. i mean you have to follow classes et al to go scuba diving (for others and your own safety), there should be a training that is at least as extensive as the scubaclasses.
not to mention the discipline that comes with it.

innit :e

[Nightshade]

On this we are in agreement.

Btw, I knew about the age for rifles and shotguns, I said handguns because that's what most people latch on to in these debates.

[Ryoki]

Odd that lower caliber weapons have a higher age restriction...

[MKJ]

prolly cause 18 year olds cant wield a shotgun without breaking their own shoulder, so its not as dangerous for other people :icon32:

[Kracus' Smarter Brother]

it doesn't take a genius to see that the criminals will now make sure they are using a gun when they attack.

[Nightshade]

Yeah, you're a terriffically shitty alt and not at all funny. You can go now.

[Hannibal]

I don not approve of gun control, as it by and large only hinders legitimate gun owners. I believe that training should be mandatory.

NS, it seems as though you actually approve of some forms of gun control (i.e., age requirements, mandatory training, registration). What current policies are problematic for you?

[reefsurfer]

coming from a guy who is probably scared shitless when a game he is waiting for is delayed, that means a lot.

You dont know me, you know nothing about me... yet you deliver personal insults.
What's funny is that it pisses you off that i dident accept your apology back when you were being an ass about a joke.
I know that it pisses you off, because in 9 out of 10 threads im in you have to reply with some sort of lame attempt to make me feel hurt.

I know that you have noticed that i couldent care less about you or your childish flames/remarks... your nothing to me, your a name on a forum on the internet.
This is just a reminder.. you are ignored ... forever.

Fuck off

[Nightshade]

I'm opposed to stupid laws, like taxing ammunition to death and limiting magazine capacity. These things are just superficial measures imposed by retarded politicians so they can feel good about themselves. I'm also against firearms registration and outright bans.
But yes, I do feel that people need proper training in order to own a gun. Hunter's safety courses are mandatory in most states, and states with concealed carry laws have required training as well.
If you've been convicted of a violent crime, no gun for you. I don't want to say felons in general, because attempting to elude the police is a felony, but one that I don't think should keep you from being able to own a gun.
Overall, I think that common sense needs to prevail, not biased ranting or Rosie O' Donell style blubbering. Look at what happens when you tell teens not to do drugs: They run out and get stoned. When I was about 9 or 10 I took a marksmanship course at summer camp, and I obviously got a lot of weapons training in the Marines. I've owned a pistol, and GUESS WHAT? I never shot anyone with it. To me it's all about parental responsibility. A very large percentage of the people I knew growing had parents who were gun owners. They knew damn good and well not to touch the guns(which were all locked up, for the most part) because they were deadly, and they'd get their asses kicked.
My grandfather had a pistol that he'd brought home from the war, and for some weird reason he kept in on top of one of the kitchen cabinets. The first time my grandmother caught me within 10 feet of it, it disappeared.

[Nightshade]

coming from a guy who is probably scared shitless when a game he is waiting for is delayed, that means a lot.

You dont know me, you know nothing about me... yet you deliver personal insults.
What's funny is that it pisses you off that i dident accept your apology back when you were being an ass about a joke.
I know that it pisses you off, because in 9 out of 10 threads im in you have to reply with some sort of lame attempt to make me feel hurt.

I know that you have noticed that i couldent care less about you or your childish flames/remarks... your nothing to me, your a name on a forum on the internet.
This is just a reminder.. you are ignored ... forever.

Fuck off

You've done nothing but make broad generalizations and come across as an idiot in this thread. Well done.