This fucking scares me...

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tnf
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Post by tnf »

Geebs wrote:Prove that guns actually protect people, and you'd have a point.
The burden isn't on us to prove that.

Guns CAN protect people in certain situations. Hence my continued argument that this law be applied to certain, rare situations.

Prove that guns don't protect people. Ever.

You know neither side can "prove" anything like that...
And lastly - calling NS and mine arguments "logic" while remaining silent on Saturn calling the US the "wild wild west" and Ryoki saying this law is just like the invasion of Iraq in principle...??

Yea, lots of "logic" in that other side's position here.
Last edited by tnf on Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dukester
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Post by Dukester »

Geebs wrote:Prove that guns actually protect people, and you'd have a point.
I don't know if that was directed at me, but I am sticking my nose into threads that I feel strongly about, but I am to lazy to really try and defend my points, so touche :)
tnf wrote:I am saying that if a person with a gun, who is trained in its use, is attacked and decides to defend himself with it...he should have every legal right to do so.
The above quote by TNF was the main point I was trying to emphasize :)
S@M
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Post by S@M »

tnf wrote:It amazes me how people get all pissed off when politicians make those exaggerated claims about the effects marijauna has on society yet turn around and make the same type of exaggerated claims about guns and the United States.
and here is your exaggerated claim:
I would argue that what we would see is MORE CRIMINALS BEING SHOT. I'm not losing sleep over that one, but, again that this will even be a result of the law is hypothetical.

Ryoki - its the same base philosophy that made the Iraq invasion acceptable, the right to a particular kind of violence, your right, but dont expect any USA peeps here to get it.

For what its worth, let em kill eachother I say. Except unlike tnf I doubt it will be more criminals being killed, besides which no one is a criminal until they have been convicted - perhaps this is how they can reduce the crime rate in the usa, kill em before they are convicted icon19 icon19 icon19
"Liberty, what crimes are committed in your name."
S@M
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Post by S@M »

tnf wrote: I am saying that if a person with a gun, who is trained in its use, is attacked and decides to defend himself with it...he should have every legal right to do so.That's it.
Is training to own a gun a requirement in USA? If so, you have a good point here, if not, straw on you.
"Liberty, what crimes are committed in your name."
Geebs
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Post by Geebs »

tnf wrote:Guns CAN protect people in certain situations. Hence my continued argument that this law be applied to certain, rare situations.
Such as? The only way you can protect yourself with a gun is to shoot the other person. Either way, someone gets shot.

There's no rationale for a law that encourages the escalation of violence while discouraging avoidance of violence.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

S@M wrote:
tnf wrote:It amazes me how people get all pissed off when politicians make those exaggerated claims about the effects marijauna has on society yet turn around and make the same type of exaggerated claims about guns and the United States.
and here is your exaggerated claim:
I would argue that what we would see is MORE CRIMINALS BEING SHOT. I'm not losing sleep over that one, but, again that this will even be a result of the law is hypothetical.

Ryoki - its the same base philosophy that made the Iraq invasion acceptable, the right to a particular kind of violence, your right, but dont expect any USA peeps here to get it.

For what its worth, let em kill eachother I say. Except unlike tnf I doubt it will be more criminals being killed, besides which no one is a criminal until they have been convicted - perhaps this is how they can reduce the crime rate in the usa, kill em before they are convicted icon19 icon19 icon19
Why don't you post my whole fucking point

"That it will directly result in more shootings cannot be demonstrated save through time. If it did indeed result in more shootings, I would argue that what we would see is MORE CRIMINALS BEING SHOT."

IF IT DID RESULT IN MORE SHOOTINGS. I didn't just say it will result in more shootings. But let's take your counterpoint - if it DOES result in more shootings, and if it isn't CRIMINALS being shot, then your argument is that people who were completely innocent are going to be shot at an increased rate by people who are legal gun owners and felt threatened.

It isn't the same fucking base philosophy about Iraq, because it isn't a pre-emptive shooting. It's a shooting while being attacked. That's the law's point.

And as for your 'nobody is a criminal until they are convicted' - what is the politically correct term for someone in the act of commiting a violent crime then?

Yea, though, just let us all kill each other...because that's what we do...fuck, if I made that comment about MIddle Eastern folks blowing themselves up you'd all have your inter-panties in a twist...ah well...
Last edited by tnf on Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

S@M wrote:
tnf wrote: I am saying that if a person with a gun, who is trained in its use, is attacked and decides to defend himself with it...he should have every legal right to do so.That's it.
Is training to own a gun a requirement in USA? If so, you have a good point here, if not, straw on you.
No, its not a requirement...but it doesn't make it a straw man argument because I've already stated that most people who carry guns are probably safer without them. The reason being they wouldn't know how to use them if they had to...but in the situation where the person can use the gun, and does so in a manner consistent with self-defense, they shouldn't have to jump through the legal hoops of "did you try and retreat first" if retreating wasn't the safest option for them.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

Geebs wrote:
tnf wrote:Guns CAN protect people in certain situations. Hence my continued argument that this law be applied to certain, rare situations.
Such as? The only way you can protect yourself with a gun is to shoot the other person. Either way, someone gets shot.

There's no rationale for a law that encourages the escalation of violence while discouraging avoidance of violence.
So the guy who keeps his gun in his waist, under his shirt is mugged. He is struggling with the attacker, and is able to get his gun out and shoot the guy attacking him.

What should he have done?

If you would have read all my posts, you'd see that I've already said that I don't think the gun is the solution to every confrontation. If you think, though, that there are NO situations where shooting an assailant is justified, you are living in fantasy land.

It seems like all your arguments are based on the suppostion that everyone in the US carries a gun with them and that everyone in the US looks to the use of a gun as the first option in self-defense.

We've taken a law that clarifies what a person carrying a gun can do in one RARE situation and extrapolated that to an increase in shootings, innocent people dying, the Iraq war part 2...

FFS people - this is one small thing.

By the way, what about this (the article is from 2001, but the point remains unchanged)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

"A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned."

Seems to defy that simple common sense that any fool could see. IF nothing else it shows, once again, that these laws and bans actually have very little to do, directly, with gun crime.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

Oh wait...there's even more
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1471716.stm

http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml
" Gun Control’s Twisted Outcome
Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S."



http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/ ... 001213.php
Image

Full study here - http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/boo ... riment.pdf

Excerpt from the website
"March 20, 2004
Gun Control Still Failing in UK - Murder Rates Skyrocketing

The London Telegraph runs a story in its Sunday edition that reports murder rates skyrocketing in London, primarily fueled by firearms, even though guns have been banned in the UK:

The murder rate in London has doubled in 12 months to reach one of its highest levels ever, according to the most recent Home Office statistics, which have been leaked to the Telegraph.

In the final three months of last year there were 61 murders in the capital, compared with just 31 in the same quarter, the previous year. The figure is the highest total for the last three months of any year, according to the Metropolitan Police's published figures. In the final three months of 2000, for example, there were only 40 murders, while in the same period of 2001 and 2002 there were 43 and 31 respectively.

Police blame drive-by shootings between gangs fighting turf wars over drug sales, as well as so-called "honour killings". But the real story is that the UK's ban on gun ownership has had an opposite effect than expected. Instead of gun crime decreasing as guns are taken out of the hands of the general public, gun crime is instead exploding as guns remain exclusively in the hands of the criminals. While you may or may not be able to argue that the crime rate would be lower if guns were legalized, no one can argue that banning guns lowers gun crime or prevents deaths from guns. London's example exposes that argument as a complete canard.

UPDATE FOR THE ANTAGONIST: Going back to my post of December 2, 2003, The Fraser Institute in Canada also concluded that gun-control laws in various Commonwealth countries had been "expensive failures":

In England and Wales:

Both Conservative and Labour governments have introduced restrictive firearms laws over the past 20 years; all handguns were banned in 1997.

Yet in the 1990s alone, the homicide rate jumped 50 percent, going from 10 per million in 1990 to 15 per million in 2000. While not yet as high as the US, in 2002 gun crime in England and Wales increased by 35 percent. This is the fourth consecutive year that gun crime has increased.

In Australia:

While violent crime is decreasing in the United States, it is increasing in Australia. Over the past six years, the overall rate of violent crime in Australia has been on the rise -- for example, armed robberies have jumped 166 percent nationwide.

The confiscation and destruction of legally owned firearms has cost Australian taxpayers at least $500 million. The cost of the police services bureaucracy, including the costly infrastructure of the gun registration system, has increased by $200 million since 1997.

In Canada:

Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted. The homicide rate is dropping faster in the US than in Canada.

The Canadian experiment with firearm registration is becoming a farce says Mauser. The effort to register all firearms, which was originally claimed to cost only $2 million, has now been estimated by the Auditor General to top $1 billion. The final costs are unknown but, if the costs of enforcement are included, the total could easily reach $3 billion."

********************

There are tons more articles like this all over - and I'm not saying that the U.S.'s gun policies are perfect - not by any means. I also realize that statistics like these ebb and flow over the years...

But according to some here - less guns is the simple answer, right? And more guns means more violence? Right? And people having the right to defend themselves from a violent attack with a gun will lead to lawlessness...just like the invasion of Iraq...right?
Dave
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Post by Dave »

Thread Closed. Or it should be because this pretty much wrapped it up
tnf
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Post by tnf »

Nah, remember..."Wild Wild West."

Because all the things the rest of the world is doing to solve violent crime is working SOOOOO very well.
bitWISE
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Post by bitWISE »

CokeMachineGlow wrote:
Tormentius wrote:
CokeMachineGlow wrote: My point is, a hand gun is a gun. A hunting Rifle is a Rifle.
A hand gun is made to kill humans. You dont hunt Deer with a .38. ( See Deer Hunter)
A Rifle is made to kill AnimalsAnything,( including humans).
But made mostly to kill animals.
A hand gun is a gun, you're right. So is a rifle as defined by the English language. Don't try to defend an argument this pathetic, it just makes you look stupid.

btw, there are people who hunt with handguns or use one as a backup when bowhunting.
Youre right,

I should dilute my positon.



No one should have a gun.

Every gun ever made sucks.

Fuck Guns.

Thats just the way I feel about it.
Not only directing this at you but others.

Why is it so hard to believe people enjoy shooting guns for sport? Whether its a machine gun, a rifle, a shotgun, or a handgun, I truely enjoy target shooting. Last summer I spent an afternoon with a couple friends shooting skeet (clay discs launched from a spring loaded arm) and it was tons of fun.

Think about what you guys do in first person shooters. You try out the guns. Nail guns with real physics always seem to be a big hit. If you actually fired a real gun in a controlled, competitive environment you would get the same enjoyment. Getting you hands on high-end weapons may be tough but hell I have plenty of fun trying to shoot out targets with my .22 rifle.
MidnightQ4
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Post by MidnightQ4 »

Freakaloin wrote:
Fjoggs wrote:I'd fucking move out of the country if a law like this hit my city.

edit: then again, it'll never happen.
lol...what a pussy...
ya

I wonder what he would do if a bunch of gun toting thugs moved into his country. Same thing I guess.

I think this gun law is great. The point of it to me is that law abiding citizens won't get tossed in jail for defending themselves. This law from what I've seen doesn't give people the right to pull out a gun and shoot whoever they please. Non-criminals are not going to just shoot people and risk going to jail. For instance I would never do that unless I was in real danger from some scumbag. There is no reason to think that other law abiding people would do any different. It is only the criminals who would do such a thing, and they already have guns and don't care about the laws anyway. This just makes them think twice before pulling out a gun, cause the other guy might just have one himself.
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MKJ
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Post by MKJ »

fight fire with fire, eh?

midnightq4, the anti-geoff
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MidnightQ4
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Post by MidnightQ4 »

tnf wrote:But the real story is that the UK's ban on gun ownership has had an opposite effect than expected. Instead of gun crime decreasing as guns are taken out of the hands of the general public, gun crime is instead exploding as guns remain exclusively in the hands of the criminals.
Oh nice post. I always knew this would be the outcome, I didn't know it had actually happened though. I'm glad I live here in the US and not some country that takes my guns away while leaving them in the hands of scumbags.
MidnightQ4
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Post by MidnightQ4 »

btw, while I'm thinking about it, whatever happened to my old account from 1999/2000? And are those posts archived?
Grudge
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Post by Grudge »

MidnightQ4 wrote:I'm glad I live here in the US and not some country that takes my guns away while leaving them in the hands of scumbags.
I'm glad I live in a country where I don't even need a fucking gun, because the chances of someone threatening me with one are close to nil.

Btw, you're a fucking retard.
MidnightQ4
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Post by MidnightQ4 »

Grudge wrote:
MidnightQ4 wrote:I'm glad I live here in the US and not some country that takes my guns away while leaving them in the hands of scumbags.
I'm glad I live in a country where I don't even need a fucking gun, because the chances of someone threatening me with one are close to nil.

Btw, you're a fucking retard.
Good for you, I guess you're opinion doesn't count for "nil" then in this discussion.

as an anectdote..
You ever been to a new club in town and been turned away by the bouncer cause he was afraid you were gonna get beat up, stabbed, or shot cause you were white? I did once cause some dumb chick invited me and I didn't know any better. Lolz good times :icon32:
ek
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Post by ek »

MidnightQ4 wrote:...
Only in America.
tnf
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Post by tnf »

Grudge wrote:
MidnightQ4 wrote:I'm glad I live here in the US and not some country that takes my guns away while leaving them in the hands of scumbags.
I'm glad I live in a country where I don't even need a fucking gun, because the chances of someone threatening me with one are close to nil.

Btw, you're a fucking retard.

Yea, and the chances here are monumentally large.
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plained
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Post by plained »

would we all feel safer if we all had a gun in each hand and maybe a double expresso in the gullet?
Grudge
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Post by Grudge »

tnf wrote:
Grudge wrote:
MidnightQ4 wrote:I'm glad I live here in the US and not some country that takes my guns away while leaving them in the hands of scumbags.
I'm glad I live in a country where I don't even need a fucking gun, because the chances of someone threatening me with one are close to nil.

Btw, you're a fucking retard.

Yea, and the chances here are monumentally large.
Yes, why else would you need a gun?
tnf
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Post by tnf »

If you think I've been arguing that people need a gun this whole thread, or that this law means you need a gun, you've not been paying attention.
Grudge
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Post by Grudge »

My reply was made in the context of MidnightQ4's post about him being glad that he lives in a country where they won't take his gun away while leaving them in the hands of scumbags.

I was arguing that it's better to not need a gun in the first place.
Nightshade
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Post by Nightshade »

Please ignore anything MidnightQ4 posts, because yes, he IS a fucking retard.

BTW, game, set, and match to tnf. :olo:
Nightshade[no u]
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