Toronto city council: put down the crack pipe

[+JuggerNaut+]

i think one would need to wait for empirical data before making judgement on whether this is good or bad.

I'd say that the advantages of a move like this is that it reduces spread of infection.

The idea is that the drug use would occur anyway, and all we're doing is providing a more controlled environment in which such use takes place.

This has its advantages, such as being able to monitor behaviours more closely, and perhaps even have an easier platform from which to provide help (instead of seeking out different users in various dark alleys, they come to you, and you can hand out information pamphlets with each sterile crack pipe).

i see drecreases in the spread of infection. that's it. the hardcore aren't going to give a crap about silly pamphlets and they certainly don't want to be counseled while waiting in line for their sterile pipe and goodies bag.

[[xeno]Julios]

Its time to tease Julios a bit...

Toronto's next great plan:

Free Handguns to the Poor and Homeless

Gun use would occur anyway and all we're doing is providing a platform to better educate gun users so that they may decide on their own to stop using the guns. Its much better this way to do it in the open than to buy the handguns in dark alleys and shady late night meetings.

This has its advantages. They come to you for the free guns and you can hand out information pamphlets with each well-oiled gun.

few points:

*Guns primarily hurt other people. Drugs primarily hurt the users.

*if we handed out free guns, there would probably be a significant increase in the number of ppl with guns. Guns are valuable commodities, and not everyone has access to them. Crack pipes are different. We're not handing out crack, just the pipes.

*I mentioned at the beginning of my post that we should judge this based on empirical data. If the policy ends up lowering drug use, and/or infection rates, then we can consider it a useful policy.

[[xeno]Julios]

i see drecreases in the spread of infection. that's it. the hardcore aren't going to give a crap about silly pamphlets and they certainly don't want to be counseled while waiting in line for their sterile pipe and goodies bag.

according to the article, relationships between counsellors are already starting to form, which apparently reduce the drug use and help with other related problems, such as employment, etc.

Sure, the most hardcore among them may not benefit at all, but there are probably a significant number who on some level appreciate the opportunity to regularly connect with "stable elements" of society.

[+JuggerNaut+]

if we handed out free guns, there would probably be a significant increase in the number of ppl with guns.

Guns are valuable commodities, and not everyone has access to them. Crack pipes are different. We're not handing out crack, just the pipes.

although in hax103's scenario, you're handing out guns and not bullets.

[[xeno]Julios]

although in hax103's scenario, you're handing out guns and not bullets.

you can't use guns without bullets.

You can use cocaine without sterile crack pipes. You make your own/share/borrow/look in garbage - not hard.

[prince1000]

only in americ.... oh wait...

Actually, never in America.

kinda, they have needle exchange programs here...

[+JuggerNaut+]

i see drecreases in the spread of infection. that's it. the hardcore aren't going to give a crap about silly pamphlets and they certainly don't want to be counseled while waiting in line for their sterile pipe and goodies bag.

according to the article, relationships between counsellors are already starting to form, which apparently reduce the drug use and help with other related problems, such as employment, etc.

Sure, the most hardcore among them may not benefit at all, but there are probably a significant number who on some level appreciate the opportunity to regularly connect with "stable elements" of society.

"already starting to form" that's from a program that's been running for years at >$4k a month per kit.

doesn't sound that effective to me.

[prince1000]

i think one would need to wait for empirical data before making judgement on whether this is good or bad.

I'd say that the advantages of a move like this is that it reduces spread of infection.

The idea is that the drug use would occur anyway, and all we're doing is providing a more controlled environment in which such use takes place.

This has its advantages, such as being able to monitor behaviours more closely, and perhaps even have an easier platform from which to provide help (instead of seeking out different users in various dark alleys, they come to you, and you can hand out information pamphlets with each sterile crack pipe).

obviously

[+JuggerNaut+]

although in hax103's scenario, you're handing out guns and not bullets.

you can't use guns without bullets.

You can use cocaine without sterile crack pipes. You make your own/share/borrow/look in garbage - not hard.

i'd imagine that bullets wouldn't be too hard to come by. steal them from your buddy, walmart, gun shop... the types of people that would be picking up these "free guns" would do exactly that.

getting a little off-topic here.

[prince1000]

i see drecreases in the spread of infection. that's it. the hardcore aren't going to give a crap about silly pamphlets and they certainly don't want to be counseled while waiting in line for their sterile pipe and goodies bag.

according to the article, relationships between counsellors are already starting to form, which apparently reduce the drug use and help with other related problems, such as employment, etc.

Sure, the most hardcore among them may not benefit at all, but there are probably a significant number who on some level appreciate the opportunity to regularly connect with "stable elements" of society.

"already starting to form" that's from a program that's been running for years at >$4k a month per kit.

doesn't sound that effective to me.

let's see the comparison drawn to human lives saved in the prevention of infection first

[+JuggerNaut+]

i'd like to see some sort of statistics but that article is sure skimpy on meat.

[[xeno]Julios]

"already starting to form" that's from a program that's been running for years at >$4k a month per kit.

doesn't sound that effective to me.

perhaps it isn't effective. If not, we'll have to re-evaluate the effectiveness of such programs, and weigh them against any of its harms.

[[xeno]Julios]

i'd imagine that bullets wouldn't be too hard to come by. steal them from your buddy, walmart, gun shop... the types of people that would be picking up these "free guns" would do exactly that.

getting a little off-topic here.

right - which is why handing out free guns ain't a good idea!

[+JuggerNaut+]

lol point. and after a 12 hour day, me go nn. i'll check this thread in the AM.

[[xeno]Julios]

lol point. and after a 12 hour day, me go nn. i'll check this thread in the AM.

fuck off - u get to go to sleep? I NEED DISTRACTION FROM MY ESSAY DAMMNIT.

arg - back to work :icon26:

[prince1000]

PLAY Q3!

[[xeno]Julios]

PLAY Q3!

still waiting for a friend to ship his old geforce to me (my geforce 2 died, and my tnt2 vanta is shite for q3).

[Geebs]

We occasionally get women in who've had the shit kicked out of them and been raped while they were too high to do anything about it. Criminalizing drug users is a total waste of time for police services.

That said, drug users are scum and I'm sick of paying to look after them.

[Geebs]

Dunno why they're handing out crack pipes though. Is there some huge problem with cold sores in the crack smoking commuity that needs to be addressed?

[Massive Quasars]

That said, drug users are scum and I'm sick of paying to look after them.

This attitude seems to be a running theme throughout your posts. Don't you think it's a little unhealthy seeing as you care for these people?

[Geebs]

These are not elderly people or minors. They are young, otherwise fit adults who take no responsibility for their wellbeing. Having to look after them because they won't look after themselves, means I have less time to look after people who are sick through no fault of their own. See also: smokers and drinkers. Oh, and self harmers.

[[xeno]Julios]

These are not elderly people or minors. They are young, otherwise fit adults who take no responsibility for their wellbeing. Having to look after them because they won't look after themselves, means I have less time to look after people who are sick through no fault of their own. See also: smokers and drinkers. Oh, and self harmers.

So you admit there is a problem. What would you propose we do about it?

[Massive Quasars]

These are not elderly people or minors. They are young, otherwise fit adults who take no responsibility for their wellbeing. Having to look after them because they won't look after themselves, means I have less time to look after people who are sick through no fault of their own. See also: smokers and drinkers. Oh, and self harmers.

I don't want to drag a philosophical issue into this, but your post is laden with words that operate on the assumption of individual free will. Call me a cunt, but engendering responsibility is not always successful. You can't talk people out of living a shitty life in every instance.

You'd serve your patients better if you approached their ailments dispassionately rather than with underly antagonism. I thought doctors were supposed to be emotionally detatched?

[Geebs]

If you're (through your own laziness) not going to contribute to centralized government funding, why should you benefit from it?

Why, for example, should a pensioner with a lifetime of national insurance contributions behind them have to suffer excruciating pain and disability from an arthritic hip or knee(which is easily surgically remediable) for 6 months while languishing on a waiting list because the hospital trust's had to use up money, staff and beds to treat junkies, drunks and end-stage smokers?

[Geebs]

You'd serve your patients better if you approached their ailments dispassionately rather than with underly antagonism. I thought doctors were supposed to be emotionally detatched?

I treat them anyway and they get the same standard of care. Get off your brainiac moral high horse.