Scary (random) thought...

[Eraser]

Last night on Discovery Channel there was something about extra-ordinary people who could do extra-ordinary things. Apart from some kind of "magnetic man" and someone who could dislocate pretty much every joint of his body, there also was a man who had such intensive knowledge of the human sub-conscient thought process that he could actually influence the behaviour of people.

Nothing supernatural about it, just pure science.

As an example he could pick people from the street, let them place their hand against a window and make them believe they couldn't remove their hand anymore. No hypnosis or anything involved, just by talking to them (and doing a few other things but I'll get back to that later).

Another thing he did was take four or five people, present 5 cards with different symbols to them and let them pick one. He wrote down in advance which card he would "force" them to choose while they would all believe they had a free choice. Every single one of them chose the card with the star symbol and that's what he had noted prior to conducting the test.

He did this by continually stimulating the subconscious parts of the brain with the star card. A few tricks were to put it in the middle of the row of 5 cards. The center card would be the first and the last card the chooser would see. He would name each card, but put a certain tonation and rythm to the way he would mention the star card. He would touch and point at just that card a few times. He could actually eliminate the card with the square symbol by literally mentioning it (subconsciously, this drives people away from choosing it). He would even make the shape of the point of a star with his hands a few times by putting his finger tips together, as if it were just a subconscious hand movement of himself, while he actually did it on purpose.

The fact that these things actually work could be slightly worrying. Who knows how many of our "free" decisions are influenced by these kinds of subliminal messages. Radio and TV commercials? Maybe they go further than just promoting the product. Maybe they actually attempt to "brain wash" you into buying the product. Or it could go even further. Maybe "they" could influence your decision at elections.

I don't think things will actually go that far, but it is a weird thing to think about.

[duffman91]

Isn't that the foundation of marketing?

They don't place the M & M's by the cashier on accident. It's to entice you into purchasing.

The argument goes beyond economics as well. If you notice, women all believe they're ugly because they look nothing like the women on Cosmo/porn/television. For whatever reason "blonde/redhead" is hotter than brunette.

Television, and more importantly: media influence us everyday.

Finally, ofcourse elections use these ideas to their advantage. They appeal to the masses with slippery slope techniques and other persuasive forms.

Honestly, its already as bad as you think. You'd be amazed at how many people don't think when making decisions. I've seen people watch burger king commercials, then five minutes later, they say they'd love to get some BK.

Car dealerships also. If you live in the states, I'm sure you'll notice how everyday is the last day of the clearance sale in every car dealership. More tripe to encourage you to buy.

[+JuggerNaut+]

Isn't that the foundation of marketing?

They don't place the M & M's by the cashier on accident. It's to entice you into purchasing.

that's not quite the same. most shoppers work on impulse, and when you're standing in line, with the right product, you can move some good quantities.

Fry's electronics here in PHX, have you walking down a sort of maze which are nothing but open ended/close sided aisles that are lined top to bottom with knick knacks, candy, cheap dvds/games/cds, and any other sort of impulse item you can think of. it's very successful, especially when the lines are long and slow.

Eraser, do you recall what the title of the show was?

[duffman91]

Could you elaborate a little bit more? I don't see how its not the same.

The idea is to change people's decisions. If its by product placement, by smooth talking, or by forced statistics its all the same deal.

People get manipulated everyday, marketing depends on it. Think about all the shit you or other people you know buy and never use.

[MKJ]

they tried 1 frame commercials once in (i think it was) Germany. that way you wouldnt really see it, but you would register it. subliminal commercials if you will

it was banned quite fast

[Eraser]

Eraser, do you recall what the title of the show was?

It's called Xtraordinary People

edit:
found a page about it:
http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/human ... ure4.shtml

[+JuggerNaut+]

Could you elaborate a little bit more? I don't see how its not the same.

The idea is to change people's decisions. If its by product placement, by smooth talking, or by forced statistics its all the same deal.

People get manipulated everyday, marketing depends on it. Think about all the shit you or other people you know buy and never use.

i don't think that someone who is impulsively shopping is being subliminally affected by anything or anyone. they do it because they "felt like it" or "it was there".

[+JuggerNaut+]

they tried 1 frame commercials once in (i think it was) Germany. that way you wouldnt really see it, but you would register it. subliminal commercials if you will

it was banned quite fast

The Exorcist has this.

[+JuggerNaut+]

Eraser, do you recall what the title of the show was?

It's called Xtraordinary People

edit:
found a page about it:
http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/human ... ure4.shtml

you the man, thx!

[Eraser]

i don't think that someone who is impulsively shopping is being subliminally affected by anything or anyone. they do it because they "felt like it" or "it was there".

There could be a difference, but maybe not. With impulse shopping, people don't consciously think about buying the M&M's. They just do like, as you said, they feel like it. With the card trick, people don't act on impulse.... you'd think. However, this could be countered again by the argument that people don't really make a conscious choice. For them, the difference between choosing the star or the circle is nil. They don't have to think about the result of their choice. So you could once again say that their choice is based upon "what they feel like" choosing.

Also, I believe that this desire to buy the M&M's is actually caused by subliminal stimulation. The packaging and the positioning of the product in the store really do trigger impulse shopping behaviour.

You'd be surprised at how important psychology is when it comes to designing packaging for a product. It's a field of science that really interests me and if there's one study I'd like to do it's in that direction. I doubt I ever would though as after finishing my IT study I can't see myself sitting in the schoolbenches again and I'm afraid that any psychology studies involve too much "mainstream" psychology.

[+JuggerNaut+]

i don't care for candy, but if i were faced with two displays of M&M's, one regular, one with peanuts, i'd go with the peanuts. why? more protein for one and i like the taste better. my choice had nothing to do with the peanut M&M's yellow packaging as opposed to the plain M&M's brown packaging.

of course the way companies "skin" their products influences the way some people shop, but i don't think this applies to everyone, only people with a little less common sense.

[Eraser]

i don't care for candy, but if i were faced with two displays of M&M's, one regular, one with peanuts, i'd go with the peanuts. why? more protein for one and i like the taste better. my choice had nothing to do with the peanut M&M's yellow packaging as opposed to the plain M&M's brown packaging.

Ofcourse the choice between the plain or peanut M&Ms has nothing to do with subliminal messaging, but the idea of buying M&Ms pops up in your head the moment you see the display of M&Ms. Seeing the packaging triggers your body to go into "eating" mode. Even if you think about something you really enjoy eating, your body already goes to kick start your digestive process and your mouth starts watering.

Ofcourse you could decide to buy M&Ms the moment you enter the shop or before, but the packaging and display does trigger impulse buying many times. It does make a difference.

of course the way companies "skin" their products influences the way some people shop, but i don't think this applies to everyone, only people with a little less common sense.

I don't think common sense has much to do with it. Even the smartest, most clear-headed persons can "fall" for it.

[+JuggerNaut+]

..but the idea of buying M&Ms pops up in your head the moment you see the display of M&Ms. Seeing the packaging triggers your body to go into "eating" mode.

i don't "buy" that. the "idea of buying" pops in your head the moment you decide to go to the store. it especially doesn't help going shopping when you're hungry. a brown or yellow packaging won't make a bit of difference.

I don't think common sense has much to do with it. Even the smartest, most clear-headed persons can "fall" for it.

i'm not with you on that either. i don't fall for food. then again, i managed grocery stores for more years than i care to remember, so i'm biased and calloused.

[ilumos]

they tried 1 frame commercials once in (i think it was) Germany. that way you wouldnt really see it, but you would register it. subliminal commercials if you will

it was banned quite fast

The Exorcist has this.

Sounds awfully familiar...

[+JuggerNaut+]

que?

[[xeno]Julios]

As an example he could pick people from the street, let them place their hand against a window and make them believe they couldn't remove their hand anymore. No hypnosis or anything involved, just by talking to them (and doing a few other things but I'll get back to that later).

Mentalism - was it Derren Brown by any chance? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown (haven't really seen him - just read about him once)

interesting bit though:

Christian evangelism

Derren performed instant conversions on a group consisting of members of the public, all of whom were atheists. After the first instant conversion many of the group chose to leave, concerned by what they had just witnessed. Derren then proceeded to convert another individual and then the remainder of the group at once. In each case, he caused the participant(s) to at least accept the possibility that there was a god, when previously they had all refused to do so. At the end of the show, a notice on screen announced that the participants had all been "de-converted" before they left.

(not sure if any of them really "converted" rather than merely saying

"well there might be a god (but there might also be an invisible iguana masturbating on every third lamppost in jordan)"

The fact that these things actually work could be slightly worrying. Who knows how many of our "free" decisions are influenced by these kinds of subliminal messages. Radio and TV commercials? Maybe they go further than just promoting the product. Maybe they actually attempt to "brain wash" you into buying the product. Or it could go even further. Maybe "they" could influence your decision at elections.

I don't think things will actually go that far, but it is a weird thing to think about.

What's even more interesting is the way in which our minds are shaped, not only by "media" influences, but by broader social influences. Media is a big part, no doubt, but there are other even more subtle aspects of our environment that shape our thought in profound and long lasting ways.

It's like learning language - the amazing thing about an infant is that it is an incredible learning machine. It just has to sit there, and it passively absorbs, probably without conscious effort, a ridiculous amount of information and strucutre - both linguistic and other.

Not only do we continue to be suspectible (for better or for worse) to these influences, but the influences during our growing years shaped our thought in dramatic ways.

We really are products of our environment (not to say our brains aren't also part of this environment).

[[xeno]Julios]

oh shit:

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/532

First, Derren takes a firm unbeliever who has traditional reasons for not believing – evil in the world, disasters etc. He asks this person to stand facing away from him. Within a few moments, without any physical contact between them, but by moving his arms alone (similar to Benny Hinn?) the unbeliever falls – Toronto blessing style – to be caught by Derren. When asked directly by Derren Brown about his beliefs, he confesses that perhaps his earlier unbelieving statements had been a little hasty and perhaps there was a God after all.

Then Derren asks the whole group to stand having confirmed that all but one of them do not believe in God. He asks them to close their eyes. Then he encourages them: ‘Be aware of the presence of God filling this room, coming close to you, encircling you, embracing you, receive this presence. Welcome it as it enters you…etc etc.’ After just a few moments all but one of the group slump backwards into their chairs. Upon questioning by Derren Brown they ALL say that they now believe in God. The genuine evangelist is astounded by what he sees and is ready to affirm Derren Brown’s ministry.

Derren Brown admits up front to the camera that he is not now, although he once was, an evangelist. His point is that merely through the power of suggestion he can cause people to alter their beliefs. He suggests that much of what he sees with TV evangelist could be subject to similar techniques. (Although, he is quick to say that they could be completely genuine.)

[Eraser]

[
Mentalism - was it Derren Brown by any chance? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown (haven't really seen him - just read about him once)

That was him yeah

edit:
wait no, it's not. His face looked familiar but the discovery channel page listed a different name.

[+JuggerNaut+]

how about "subliminal messages" in music? who here believes that crap?

"example" using Led Zeppelin's Stairway To Heaven:

Forward playing lyrics:
"If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now, it's just a spring clean for the May Queen. Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run there's still time to change the road your on."

Backwards playing lyrics:
"Oh here's to my sweet Satan. The one whose little path would make me sad, whose power is Satan. He'll give those with him 666, there was a little toolshed where he made us suffer, sad Satan."

:lol:

[Eraser]

oh shit:

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/532

Not sure what the long lasting effect of it is though.
The thing with the window as an example. He would snap his fingers in front of the face of his "victim" and say you've snapped out of it now, relax your hand. They would instantly remove their hand from the window.

I doubt that if he would've left the victim would forever be stuck to the window. I think that there's some sort of breakable thread along which the thoughts in your head move at the moment. As soon as the thread is disturbed, the thoughts fall and you wake up out of it.

I don't think people's opinions (especially not on something as fundamental as religion) can be changed for a long term like this.

[Eraser]

how about "subliminal messages" in music? who here believes that crap?

"example" using Led Zeppelin's Stairway To Heaven:

Forward playing lyrics:
"If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now, it's just a spring clean for the May Queen. Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run there's still time to change the road your on."

Backwards playing lyrics:
"Oh here's to my sweet Satan. The one whose little path would make me sad, whose power is Satan. He'll give those with him 666, there was a little toolshed where he made us suffer, sad Satan."

:lol:

That is, indeed bullshit. I don't doubt, however, that subliminal messages could, in one way or another, work. It's nothing supernatural or psychic, just psychology. Science.

[[xeno]Julios]

I think that ther e's some sort of breakable thread along which the thoughts in your head move at the moment. As soon as the thread is disturbed, the thoughts fall and you wake up out of it.

I don't think people's opinions (especially not on something as fundamental as religion) can be changed for a long term like this.

But once you've established this (temporary and fragile) thread, you can quickly build on it.

This is why cult recruitment strategies involve an extended retreat where the recruit is lovebombed and not given much chance for critical reflection. These events, which evoke some incredibly powerful psychological responses, can facilitate the growth of a more solid foundation around this thread. The recruit now becomes an agent with her own momentum. There is a rich enough base of mutually supporting threads in order to motivate itself to grow, and to spread itself throughout the brain, and in other minds (memes are in some ways more powerful than genes - they can really be viral).

Another thing to consider is that Derren Brown used to be an evangelist (according to quote in my last post. It is likely that techniques similar to the ones he used, are in fact used by evangelists. There are two things to note:

1) many people who are instantly converted through evangelism (and stick with it, unlike Derren's guests) may already ready to "receive jesus". This readiness reinforces the thin thread.

2) these techniques can be performed without deceitful intent. Many evangelists may believe, having gone through a similar experience themselves, that the experience (and the means to it) is genuine. Part of the meme is the technique aswell.

(i really dunno much about evangelism - i'm just extrapolating here, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is at least partially accurate)

[Ryoki]

I remember reading an article in a Dutch quality newspaper (NRC) about a year ago on how some weirdo conspiracy theorist had written a letter to said newspaper claiming that many US TV shows broadcast on dutch tv stations had subliminal messages in them, the good old 1 frame word type. Newspaper didn’t believe him of course, but did some checking of its own just for kicks and they were utterly amazed to actually find subliminal messages in the shows… most of it anti drugs or anti terrorism stuff, but also weird words that didn’t seem to make any sense.

They did a front page piece on it, but I can’t find anything on the internet about it, which is a shame. As far as I know this practice continues.

Btw they also exposed the Echelon Project many years ago as one of the first main stream media - it’s one of the few newspapers here that still have good investigative reporters and doesn’t blindly copy AP/Reuters. I wubs that newspaper

[Eraser]

@julios:
Yeah there's truth in your post.
One interesting thing mentioned in the show is that he specifically selected the people for the hand-on-window thing to increase the chance of success.

[S@M]

so how can we take this process and use it to get more blow jobs from our wives/girlfriends. That my friends is the real question.