julios(foreskin matter)

Open discussion about any topic, as long as you abide by the rules of course!
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

ScooterG wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:

The specialized receptors exist at the mucous membrane junctions that connect the shaft to the glans. This is essentially the inner wall of the foreskin.
That's the frenulum, right?
the frenulum is that delicate piece of tissue that actually physically connects the shaft to the glans. It is long and thin and highly sensitive.

http://research.cirp.org/ for details (click on pictures)
Figure 5. Frenulum and ridged band. The frenulum is a thin fold of mucosa between the foreskin and glans. It is attached to the midline (raphe) of the glans, very close to the external opening of the urethra (urinary passage). This connection is made possible by the deep notch in the undersurface of the glans. Note: the frenulum blends into the ridged band of the foreskin and this provides a link between several important sensory structures.
ScooterG
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Post by ScooterG »

bork[e] wrote:
Girls get cut also, news to me.
Unfortunately, yes. In varying degrees, people remove the whole clitoris, just the hood, partial or full removal of the labia...it's terrible.
bork[e]
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Post by bork[e] »

"the Hood" :lol:
ScooterG
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Post by ScooterG »

[xeno]Julios, are you a doctor? (forgive me if that's common knowledge here, but I'm new....)
bork[e]
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Post by bork[e] »

Someone post a pic of that area cut off on a chick...like out of a science book or something. Can't believe we didn't learn about this in HS.
ScooterG
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Post by ScooterG »

bork[e] wrote:"the Hood" :lol:
Well, it totally looks like a hood, so what else would you call it? ;)
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

ScooterG wrote:[xeno]Julios, are you a doctor? (forgive me if that's common knowledge here, but I'm new....)
no - but i've taken an interest in this topic over the years.
ScooterG
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Post by ScooterG »

[xeno]Julios wrote:
no - but i've taken an interest in this topic over the years.
Me, too. I don't know why but I've read a lot about female circumcision..... I'm Jewish so I just take male circumcision as the norm, but you're right...it should be reviewed as to whether or not it is really a necessary practice....
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

here is a vid of a circumcision:

http://ftp.intact.ca/images/new025.mpeg

more vids here (though i haven't checked them out):

http://www.intact.ca/video.html
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

ScooterG wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
no - but i've taken an interest in this topic over the years.
Me, too. I don't know why but I've read a lot about female circumcision..... I'm Jewish so I just take male circumcision as the norm, but you're right...it should be reviewed as to whether or not it is really a necessary practice....

Ever hear of Moses Maimonedes? (famous jewish philosopher/physician/rabbi)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

Here is what he had to say about circumcision:
Moses ben Maimon (Maimonides), 12th Century

With regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible.

It has been thought that circumcision perfects what is defective congenitally. This gave the possibility for everyone to raise an objection and to say: How can natural things be defective so that they need to be perfected from outside, all the more because we know how useful the foreskin is for the member? In fact this commandment has not been prescribed with a view to perfecting what is defective congenitally, but to perfecting what is defective morally.

The bodily pain caused to that member is the real purpose of circumcision. None of the activities necessary for the preservation of the individual is harmed thereby, nor is procreation rendered impossible, but violent concupiscence and lust that goes beyond what is needed are diminished. The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable. For if at birth this member has been made to bleed and has had its covering taken away from it, it must indubitably be weakened.

The sages, may their memory be blessed, have explicitly stated: "It is hard for a woman with whom an uncircumcised man has had sexual intercourse to separate from him." In my opinion this is the strongest of the reasons for circumcision.

Moses ben Maimon, Guide of the perplexed, Part III, Chapter 49
http://www.circumstitions.com/Pleasure.html#maimonides
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

more on judaism and circumcision (note that there are alternative tribal ceremonies that don't involve sharp objects and pain and mutilation, such as bris shalom)

http://www.circumstitions.com/Jewish.html

http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

bork[e] wrote:Someone post a pic of that area cut off on a chick...like out of a science book or something. Can't believe we didn't learn about this in HS.
http://www.middle-east-info.org/league/ ... ctures.htm

(warning explicit)

image of a female undergoing the ritual:

Image
ScooterG
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Post by ScooterG »

[xeno]Julios wrote:
Moses ben Maimon (Maimonides), 12th Century

With regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible.

It has been thought that circumcision perfects what is defective congenitally. This gave the possibility for everyone to raise an objection and to say: How can natural things be defective so that they need to be perfected from outside, all the more because we know how useful the foreskin is for the member? In fact this commandment has not been prescribed with a view to perfecting what is defective congenitally, but to perfecting what is defective morally.

The bodily pain caused to that member is the real purpose of circumcision. None of the activities necessary for the preservation of the individual is harmed thereby, nor is procreation rendered impossible, but violent concupiscence and lust that goes beyond what is needed are diminished. The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable. For if at birth this member has been made to bleed and has had its covering taken away from it, it must indubitably be weakened.

The sages, may their memory be blessed, have explicitly stated: "It is hard for a woman with whom an uncircumcised man has had sexual intercourse to separate from him." In my opinion this is the strongest of the reasons for circumcision.

Moses ben Maimon, Guide of the perplexed, Part III, Chapter 49
I've definitely heard of Moses Maimonedes, but I have never read that - and it is so honest.... And I have always heard it was for hygeine, like the rules of Kosher...one of those rules we don't have a real need to follow in today's society of bodily and food cleanliness, but that we follow for tradition. Wow. That's really not what we as Jews hear as the reason for this practice.... At least not me!
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

ScooterG wrote:I've definitely heard of Moses Maimonedes, but I have never read that - and it is so honest.... And I have always heard it was for hygeine, like the rules of Kosher...one of those rules we don't have a real need to follow in today's society of bodily and food cleanliness, but that we follow for tradition. Wow. That's really not what we as Jews hear as the reason for this practice.... At least not me!
You can find similar thoughts in more contemporary contexts:

Advocating Circumcision Today, a Jewish pro-circumcision group, states:

"When the foreskin is properly removed on the eighth day, all negative energy is annihilated and will never be able to have control over the person. On a metaphysical level, we cut off the ability for the potential of negative energy to become actualized in the child, thus giving him the extra strength necessary to overcome any problems he will experience throughout his life.

Kabbalah explains, that in this world there are many obstacles which conceal G-dliness. It is our job to remove these blocks, thus revealing the G-dly light. Circumcision is an act of removing unholiness. By physically removing the foreskin, we are spiritually removing and eliminating undesirable character traits, depressive tendencies and so on. We eliminate from the body of the child, forces which might try to cultivate overindulgence in physical pleasures, etc. In short, we give the child a boost and head start in fighting life's battles; it can be compared to the concept of immunization."


(emphases added)


http://www.act-now.org/content/7.htm

An excellent introduction to the modern history of circumcision (most notably its assumed role in preventing masturbation) can be read here:

http://www.cirp.org/library/history/gollaher
ScooterG
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Post by ScooterG »

Well, I'm more of a cultural Jew than a religious Jew - know what I mean? And this is kind of disturbing. If you really believe in God you should believe He designed us the way he wanted us. I think Nature designed us the way we need to be....
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

ever wondered about why it is only jewish males that have the privilege of making the sacrificial bond with god?

ah good old patriarchy. The fear of women seems to be a deep pathology within these traditions - i've heard speculation that circumcision was partially supported by the fear of the mother-infant bond.

Circumcision was a formal and traumatic way to break that bond - thus initiating the boy into the male tribe.

This quote's a gem:
Isaac ben Yediah, 13th Century

When a woman makes love to an uncircumcised man, she feels pleasure and reaches orgasm first. When an uncircumcised man sleeps with her and then resolves to return to his home, she brazenly grasps him, holding onto his genitals and says to him, "Come back, make love to me". This is because of the pleasure that she finds in intercourse with him, from the sinews of his testicles -- sinew of iron and from his ejaculation -- that of a horse -- which he shoots like an arrow into her womb.

With the circumcised man it is different. He will find himself performing his task quickly, emitting his seed as soon as he inserts the crown. … As soon as he begins intercourse, he immediately comes to a climax. The woman has no pleasure from him. She leaves the marriage bed frustrated. She does not have an orgasm once a year, except on rare occasions.

[This is good for her husband: freed from lascivious desires] he will not empty his brain because of his wife [and] his heart will be strong to seek out God.

Quoted in David Gollaher, Circumcision: A history of the world's most controversial surgery, p. 22

Isaac ben Yediah was a disciple of Maimonides.
http://www.circumstitions.com/Pleasure.html

whether or not circumcision did in fact affect lovemaking, or the psychosexual relationship between a man and his wife, is somewhat irrelevant - the point is that the idea reflected the wisdom around circumcision at the time.

Here's a quote from another post I made:
...oppressing male sexuality may indeed be useful wisdom - i personally feel it's not a very enlightened idea - but what I can assert unequivocally is that this wisdom is not being transmitted honestly. There is something of a noble lie at play here, where palatable lies (i.e. extent of medical prophylaxis), or obscure spiritual references (the foreskin is a source of spiritual evil), are employed in favour of hard truths (circumcision reduces sexual pleasure, which is important for a healthy and godly society). There has been a radical break from the tradition of circumcision: where it was once understood by scholars, religious authorities, and physicians to be a form of control over male sexuality, we are now in an era of hypocrisy.

I do not believe in noble lies, as I believe they ultimately stunt intellectual and spiritual growth, if not overcome. It is spiritually dishonest, not to mention immoral, to use religious duty, or faith, as a justification for a procedure that is proved to be harmful, without any reflection on the wisdom. Reflection on the "command to circumcise" would involve the same sort of reflection on why recreational drug use is considered spiritually dangerous. Reflection does not stop at the thought that drugs are simply spiritually evil. Reflection requires the question of the mechanism of this evil. A deeper understanding is thus acquired. We have no problem reflecting on issues such as drugs, sex, murder, etc., but with circumcision very few are willing to take that step.
Scarface
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Post by Scarface »

[xeno]Julios wrote:
Scarface wrote:I'm curcimsized, and i don't feel at all left out of the pleasure aspect, infact, I fucking love sex and it feels great.
Many circumcised women claim the same about their mutilated genitilia.

Ignorance is truly bliss.
you're saying my cock is mutilated? I'm assuming you're uncircumsized, so how could you possibly know what sex feels like without one?

So you're right, ignorance is bliss
shiznit
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Post by shiznit »

Circumcision is not necessary unless you want it to look a certain way, you also loose sensitivity and there is generally less pleasure from sex. If you think otherwise go do your own research, there are tons of people who can testify before and after circumcision.

Also the fact that it’s a barbaric practice, cutting a piece of your genitalia? That’s just fucked up! I bet most people wouldn’t defend circumcision if they had it done to them as an adult.
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

Scarface wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
Scarface wrote:I'm curcimsized, and i don't feel at all left out of the pleasure aspect, infact, I fucking love sex and it feels great.
Many circumcised women claim the same about their mutilated genitilia.

Ignorance is truly bliss.
you're saying my cock is mutilated? I'm assuming you're uncircumsized, so how could you possibly know what sex feels like without one?

So you're right, ignorance is bliss
yea actually I am circumcised. And yes - our cocks are mutilated.

what else would you call this:

http://ftp.intact.ca/images/new025.mpeg
horton
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Post by horton »

the only things I will say on the subject are:

1. Im glad mine is still intact, because now as an adult I have the ability to choose to keep it or not..

2. far more importantly, my foreskin plays an important role in me having a wank, therefore it fucking stays.
Keep It Real

Post by Keep It Real »

xeno don't you think there are bigger fish to fry? is this really an issue in your head? :lol:
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

Keep It Real wrote:xeno don't you think there are bigger fish to fry? is this really an issue in your head? :lol:
heh

I sense you find it disturbing that I take the issue seriously.

To me it's a human rights issue.

You'd be surprised at how difficult it is for women to speak out against female circumcision within their communities. They're similarly ridiculed. And there are forms of female circumcision that are less severe than male circumcision.

If you have anything useful to add to the discussion, by all means feel free to chime in.
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MKJ
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Post by MKJ »

americans and their circumcision culture :@
[url=http://profile.mygamercard.net/Emka+Jee][img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Emka+Jee.jpg[/img][/url]
ScooterG
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Post by ScooterG »

[xeno]Julios wrote:ever wondered about why it is only jewish males that have the privilege of making the sacrificial bond with god?
Of course I think about that, especially given that I am a Jewish woman. It's very disappointing....

Also, I watched that video and I am really shocked at the likeness of the mutilation done to American baby boys and the baby girls from other cultures - and I've been to a bris, but you don't see it like that!!

But despite all this, because of the society and culture I grew up in, I do think the circumcised penis is more attractive. Perhaps if we don't perform this procedure anymore future generations won't have the same stupid, ingrained bias that I do..... :icon26:
Geebs
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Post by Geebs »

S@M wrote:back to the study for a minute...epidemiological studies are very powerful within their context - so this study should be considered important in the cultural context it was conducted in. To take those study findings and apply them else where would be dubious due to a lack of external validity ie other cultures might be so different that the findings are non applicable - aka the hrt study in USA which lead to huge numbers of women stopping hrt, although hrt prescription in the USA, and the median age range of those women was not generalisable to other countries. So good data (probably) but not a solution to be blindly adopted in other cultures.
3000 is a fucking tiny sample size for epidemiology.
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