US court rules that p2p programs are illegal

Post by **Eraser** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:54 am

I haven't got an english source for this, but for the dutchies, I got it from here:
http://www.nu.nl/news/547688/54/%27Inte ... jk%27.html

Basically they said that authors of p2p programs and those that distribute the programs (with illegal intentions) are responsible.

Not sure how water tight this is, since it's pretty much impossible that someone's intentions were illegal (see BitTorrent for example, his intentions were clearly not illegal) but Kazaa or Direct Connect could say the same.

Post by **Nightshade** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:57 am

The interpretation of the ruling that I heard said that P2P software companies can be sued if the users commit acts of copyright infringement, not that the programs were illegal. I think that it will be hard to win a lawsuit of this type, as intent is very hard to prove and there are legit uses for P2P.

Post by **Ryoki** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:57 am

Seems to me like blaming the creators of a browser for the fact that illegal sites can be reached. Or is that a bad comparison?

Post by **Dave** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:01 am

the supreme court made a lot of retarded decisions in the past week or so

Post by **Nightshade** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:03 am

I don't think so. Look at it like this: Guns are made to kill things, but that doesn't mean that the gun manufacturer knows that all their guns will be used to commit murder. A handgun is really only good for killing humans, but that doesn't mean that they'll always be used to commit murder.

A coarse analogy, to be sure, but I think it holds in this context.

edit: DOH! postus interruptus!

Post by **mik0rs** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:05 am

Ryoki wrote:Seems to me like blaming the creators of a browser for the fact that illegal sites can be reached. Or is that a bad comparison?

Nah that's a solid enough analogy.

Post by **Dave** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:14 am

In the past week:
- Your home can be seized to build a Walmart
- RIAA/MPAA have another scapegoat in the music war, which will extend the culture of lawsuit and probably not bring us any closer to fairly priced media
- Separation of church and state can be circumvented by claiming you're paying historical homage

We're on the verge of finding out what happens when a country over-legislates itself

Post by **MKJ** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:17 am

water tight? not even close.
"for illegal intentions". is kazaa for illegal intentions? not really, you can share livesets n the like if you want.

oh wait i see ryoki already covered all this shiat. owned then
US court can suck it

Post by **mik0rs** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:20 am

I'd argue that Kazaa was fully about illegal file sharing, that it happened to have legal uses too is just a matter of coincidence.

It'd be hard to convincingly argue that point with regards to it's intended use though.

Post by **seremtan** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:30 pm

Ryoki wrote:Seems to me like blaming the creators of a browser for the fact that illegal sites can be reached. Or is that a bad comparison?

nope, sounds fine :icon14:

or even: cars are involved in hit-and-runs in which people are killed, therefore car manufacturers should be held partially liable for their deaths

presumably if i stab someone with a kitchen knife, it'll be Zanussi or Coalport in the dock with me...

US Supreme Court :lol:

Post by **o'dium** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:33 pm

Gotta love "smart people" thinking this shit up...

Post by **Pauly** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:42 pm

The thing is, what you have to understand is that something drastic needs to be done. While everyone here may like to download stuff and your own personal downloads probably have no impact whatsoever on the market, multiply that by at least 5 million and you can see the impact it starts to have.

Cinema takings are well down this year. The music industry is saying that profits are at an all time low. Game companies are going bankrupt because of poor sales.

Now you may have no sympathy for these people, because they are ultimately richer than you, but it was only a matter of time before something big came into play to try and stop the sheer amount of piracy that is taking place now. It's out of control. Literally everyone I know has bought pirate DVD's over the past year. This was only to be expected when broadband was introduced and couple that with CD Writers and now DVD writers, it was completely fucking obvious where this was all heading, and part of me thinks "well, fucking blame Sony for making CD Writers. What the hell did you think people were going to use a PC with broadband internet and a CD writer for????"

Post by **Eraser** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:52 pm

The problem is that the music industry's sales aren't down.
In the years they sued napster, they claimed sales went down while in fact they made more money than the year before. They're just big fat liars and their methods of getting "their" money are in some cases unacceptable.

Post by **Nightshade** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:26 pm

I have no sympathy for the MPAA. I don't d/l movies, but I rent them and burn them. I'm still paying for them, and I feel that if I pay for it, I should damn well be able to watch it whenever I want. Netflix has to pay for the movies they rent out, and I pay Netflix.
The problem I have with going to the movies (which I still do on a regular basis) is that the ticket prices have become OBSCENELY expensive. $7 or $8 per ticket for an adult, and then the goddamn popcorn is literally almost as much. There is no reason on earth for popcorn to cost six fucking dollars, nor a soda four dollars. None.
Until the cost of going to the movies comes down (same for the price of CDs), then fuck the MPAA. They makes hojillions of dollars, and box office sales were down almost this far in 1985, and they certainly couldn't blame that on the internet.
Pirated applications and games are a different story. They're too expensive also, imo, but there's really no way to justify pirating them.

If P2P goes away, I won't lose any sleep. There are relatively cheap student versions of just about everything out there, and I have a job.

Post by **seremtan** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:31 pm

Pauly wrote:The thing is, what you have to understand is that something drastic needs to be done. While everyone here may like to download stuff and your own personal downloads probably have no impact whatsoever on the market, multiply that by at least 5 million and you can see the impact it starts to have.

Cinema takings are well down this year. The music industry is saying that profits are at an all time low. Game companies are going bankrupt because of poor sales.

Now you may have no sympathy for these people, because they are ultimately richer than you, but it was only a matter of time before something big came into play to try and stop the sheer amount of piracy that is taking place now. It's out of control. Literally everyone I know has bought pirate DVD's over the past year. This was only to be expected when broadband was introduced and couple that with CD Writers and now DVD writers, it was completely fucking obvious where this was all heading, and part of me thinks "well, fucking blame Sony for making CD Writers. What the hell did you think people were going to use a PC with broadband internet and a CD writer for????"

ok, piracy of just-released movies comes from crappy handheld camcorders in cinemas (a failure of cinema security) or from leaks in the distribution network. Without these P2P has nothing.

But largely it's because - as a poll in the UK recently suggested - most people don't see it as theft, and it isn't difficult to see why. If I steal your TV set, I have your TV and you don't. However if I copy one of your DVDs, you still have your movie, and now I have it too. That just doesn't seem like theft to many people.

And when you factor in the long tradition of videoing stuff off the TV and cassette copying...

However I don't buy those 'lost earnings' figures they quote for two simple reasons:

- they're guesstimates and nothing more. there's no way they can get an accurate figure
- they assume that everyone who ever pirated a movie or software would have bought it if they hadn't pirated it. This just isn't a tenable assumption, especially where expensive software like Photoshop and the like is concerned. Even with cheaper stuff like movies and games there's no guarantee that someone would have bought it if they hadn't copied it.

Post by **seremtan** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:33 pm

Nightshade wrote:$7 or $8 per ticket

lol, it's nearly that much in £££ in parts of the UK. Not just London either.

Post by **Ryoki** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:35 pm

A movie ticket is expensive here too... like 15 euro's i think? New CD's are at least 20 euros, usually a few euro's more. I think we have somewhat cheaper popcorn in the theaters though.

Post by **MKJ** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:36 pm

Ryoki wrote:I think we have somewhat cheaper popcorn in the theaters though.

think again

you're also forced to get a 12 gallon bucket of coke, which noone ever finishes

not to mention the lack of legroom in cinema's
urk

Post by **eepberries** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:37 pm

Yeah. It's shocking. I spent 18$ yesterday just to see a movie. That included:

1 ticket
1 medium coke
1 order of nachos

:icon27:

Post by **MKJ** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:37 pm

seremtan wrote:
Pauly wrote:The thing is, what you have to understand is that something drastic needs to be done. While everyone here may like to download stuff and your own personal downloads probably have no impact whatsoever on the market, multiply that by at least 5 million and you can see the impact it starts to have.

Cinema takings are well down this year. The music industry is saying that profits are at an all time low. Game companies are going bankrupt because of poor sales.

Now you may have no sympathy for these people, because they are ultimately richer than you, but it was only a matter of time before something big came into play to try and stop the sheer amount of piracy that is taking place now. It's out of control. Literally everyone I know has bought pirate DVD's over the past year. This was only to be expected when broadband was introduced and couple that with CD Writers and now DVD writers, it was completely fucking obvious where this was all heading, and part of me thinks "well, fucking blame Sony for making CD Writers. What the hell did you think people were going to use a PC with broadband internet and a CD writer for????"
ok, piracy of just-released movies comes from crappy handheld camcorders in cinemas (a failure of cinema security) or from leaks in the distribution network. Without these P2P has nothing.

But largely it's because - as a poll in the UK recently suggested - most people don't see it as theft, and it isn't difficult to see why. If I steal your TV set, I have your TV and you don't. However if I copy one of your DVDs, you still have your movie, and now I have it too. That just doesn't seem like theft to many people.

And when you factor in the long tradition of videoing stuff off the TV and cassette copying...

However I don't buy those 'lost earnings' figures they quote for two simple reasons:

- they're guesstimates and nothing more. there's no way they can get an accurate figure
- they assume that everyone who ever pirated a movie or software would have bought it if they hadn't pirated it. This just isn't a tenable assumption, especially where expensive software like Photoshop and the like is concerned. Even with cheaper stuff like movies and games there's no guarantee that someone would have bought it if they hadn't copied it.

they really shouldnt "market" is as stealing. they should make a "forge your own cash" analogy, IMO. that would be more effective i think

Post by **eepberries** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:38 pm

MKJ wrote:
Ryoki wrote:I think we have somewhat cheaper popcorn in the theaters though.
think again

you're also forced to get a 12 gallon bucket of coke, which noone ever finishes

not to mention the lack of legroom in cinema's
urk

I actually probably would finish it (I'm usually not hungry, just thirsty) but I always try not to since I'd end up having to go to the bathroom in the middle of the movie as well as the fact that it just isn't great for you.

Post by **plained** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:48 pm

the last movie i went to it took awile to find a non-gooed up headrest the seats were sick.

and yea im not very long and i was cramed up like a mofo.

it wasnt a old theatre iether

Post by **Pext** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:50 pm

i'm totally pro-piracy.

for the first time, mankind can share and reproduce something, in this case information, at nearly no cost. this is as much of a technical revolution as electricity was.

the producing people just need to realize this. currently, they're panicly trying to sustain the satus quo. they will fail sooner or later.

and... you don't need quadrillions of dollar to make good movies.

Post by **+JuggerNaut+** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:02 pm

Nightshade wrote:I have no sympathy for the MPAA. I don't d/l movies, but I rent them and burn them. I'm still paying for them, and I feel that if I pay for it, I should damn well be able to watch it whenever I want. Netflix has to pay for the movies they rent out, and I pay Netflix.
The problem I have with going to the movies (which I still do on a regular basis) is that the ticket prices have become OBSCENELY expensive. $7 or $8 per ticket for an adult, and then the goddamn popcorn is literally almost as much. There is no reason on earth for popcorn to cost six fucking dollars, nor a soda four dollars. None.
Until the cost of going to the movies comes down (same for the price of CDs), then fuck the MPAA. They makes hojillions of dollars, and box office sales were down almost this far in 1985, and they certainly couldn't blame that on the internet.
Pirated applications and games are a different story. They're too expensive also, imo, but there's really no way to justify pirating them.

If P2P goes away, I won't lose any sleep. There are relatively cheap student versions of just about everything out there, and I have a job.

Netflix wasn't (isnt?) doing so well after Blockbuster started renting online, and has had to partner with Wal-Mart to try and help themselves get ahead of the game. Just because you pay Netflix (or Blockbuster) doesn't give you the right to burn movies that you don't own. I'm not seeing how you can circumvent that, knowing you're only paying a few dollars per DVD.

On to the price of movies at the theaters:

how is it the MPAA's fault that a bag of popcorn is $4? or a cup of Coke is $5? do they regulate those prices? that's a serious question.

$7 or $8 dollars for just the movie per adult is not a big deal. i can watch the top flicks on a DLP projector for the same price at my local Harkins theater. you pay for the experience (especially if you don't have an HT setup at home).

Post by **+JuggerNaut+** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:17 pm

Pauly wrote:The thing is, what you have to understand is that something drastic needs to be done. While everyone here may like to download stuff and your own personal downloads probably have no impact whatsoever on the market, multiply that by at least 5 million and you can see the impact it starts to have.

Cinema takings are well down this year. The music industry is saying that profits are at an all time low. Game companies are going bankrupt because of poor sales.

Now you may have no sympathy for these people, because they are ultimately richer than you, but it was only a matter of time before something big came into play to try and stop the sheer amount of piracy that is taking place now. It's out of control. Literally everyone I know has bought pirate DVD's over the past year. This was only to be expected when broadband was introduced and couple that with CD Writers and now DVD writers, it was completely fucking obvious where this was all heading, and part of me thinks "well, fucking blame Sony for making CD Writers. What the hell did you think people were going to use a PC with broadband internet and a CD writer for????"

i agree with almost all of your post, but am not sure about your stance on the movie industry's earnings. are you saying that they're down ONLY because of piracy? because, since the advent of the DVD, they've been steadily declining. DVD's and affordable Home Theaters have made it possible for your average consumer to have a decent setup at home. during this timeline of the dvd evolution is where realized i could put together something that was almost as good as a cinema for a few years worth of movie going money, in the comfort of my own home. i rarely go to the cinema anymore, unless i cannot wait for the DVD - The Lord Of The Rings series is a good example - AND i bought the extended versions when they were released. but i regress..

again, i don't think JUST piracy is to blame for the dying age of cinema-going, and for cinemas to get back on track they need to definitely lower their prices across the board.

i agree with you though that this is a huge ruling and it was just a matter of time before something like this happened. it's good because of the amount of piracy everywhere, but it's bad for the open source community and other free tradings (live music, etc). I'll not give up my BT so easily.