Evolution Debate in Kansas Prompts Attacks

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:09 pm

Kracus wrote: Erm well... if you're a Christian doesn't that mean they've sortof won whether they're right or wrong?

You could easily ruin this thread. Easily.

I suggest you stop.

Post by **werldhed** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:13 pm

Cool Blue wrote::lol:

Evolution hasn't been observed, only speculated.

Show me one study that has and can repeatedly cause a favorable mutation in a genetic line that creates such a large increase in the survival rate ensuring its (the desired trait) is passed on.

I haven't found one yet. And to me, like with String theory, if you can't reproduce or prove something conclusively via tests in a labratory, it's merely a theory. This one seems to be a well thought out theory, but it's still just a theory. And until someone can recreate evolution on demand (or even a portion thereof) it hasn't been 'observed' either.

Done

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:14 pm

But remember, humans are different...so microbial/insect/plant/animal evolution doesn't count. I want to see humans that can breathe underwater dammit!

Post by **GONNAFISTYA** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:15 pm

tnf wrote: in fact, I would be willing to bet that a great proportion of us have no problem with evolution at all. We just tend not to be the vocal voice of the religion, because we are the types who aren't out hold society back with dogmatic fascist style beliefs.

Is there a reason why the "people" in religion haven't risen to speak about this? Fear of damnation? Fear of questioning God's plan?

If so many people know about it...why does everyone stay silent?

Or is it all about pew selection in the church "society" and keeping up with the Jones? :icon26:

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:22 pm

GONNAFISTYA wrote:
tnf wrote: in fact, I would be willing to bet that a great proportion of us have no problem with evolution at all. We just tend not to be the vocal voice of the religion, because we are the types who aren't out hold society back with dogmatic fascist style beliefs.
Is there a reason why the "people" in religion haven't risen to speak about this? Fear of damnation? Fear of questioning God's plan?

If so many people know about it...why does everyone stay silent?

Or is it all about pew selection in the church "society" and keeping up with the Jones? :icon26:

To be honest, I don't know why. I don't think its a fear of damnation by any means. Probably moreso that it just isn't in their character. Generally they are the types who tend to try and demonstrate their faith by their actions, their non-judgemental nature, their non-combative nature. Those qualities don't lend themselves well to standing up and arguing. Plus, I think most of them realize that trying to make any sort of reasonable plea to the hardcore holy rolling bible thumpers is like trying to kick a dead horse in the ass.

I've tried to be a voice to some extent - not so much for Christianity itself or evolution itself - but as a voice of reason to make people understand that evolution and religion do not HAVE to be mutually exclusive, and that there have been some VERY brilliant folks who have agreed.

Although the literalists will say otherwise, I find that the Bible says nothing that prevents evolution and Christianity from co-existing (but I tend to look at some of the beginning passages as metaphoric...NOT stories of exactly HOW things happened.) Any Christian who tries to hold the Bible up to the standards of science is doing their faith a HUGE disservice, because it cannot do anything but fail when tested by science.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:49 pm

tnf wrote:
Kracus wrote:
tnf wrote:I'm not even going to engage any further discussion about evolution here. Show me a time in the past 1000 years where religion has "won" the debate in the long run. And I am a Christian.
Erm well... if you're a Christian doesn't that mean they've sortof won whether they're right or wrong?
No, because not all Christians are involved or engaged in this debate. in fact, I would be willing to bet that a great proportion of us have no problem with evolution at all. We just tend not to be the vocal voice of the religion, because we are the types who aren't out hold society back with dogmatic fascist style beliefs.

The almost-empty box always rattles the loudest, regardless of the area you are in.

I dunno, it honestly bugs me to see people like you that are educated enough to realize that evolution is obviously how we got here yet still cling on to the idea that there's a god, a christian one at that. I can relate to agnostics but people that call themselves Christian are in a whole other ballfield. You're supporting a group of people obviously opposed to most things scientific. It's not that they don't acknowledge science it's that they need to change their ideals and storys/lies based on new science that's developing. It really wasn't that long ago they didn't even admit the world was even round! how can you as a man of science and a teacher proudly claim to be a Christian? It's like an anti gay calling himself bi!

The whole christian thing is all bull anyway, they have a little ceremony and voila you're christian for life. It's all hogwash and what you make of it but if you voluntarily call yourself a christian you're saying you follow they're ideas. You can't say you're chrisitian but only beleive part of it. In that case you're more of an agnostic, trying desperately to make sense of nothing and finding it by being as vague as humanly possible on the subject.

Evolution man, it stands against everything Christianity represents.

Post by **werldhed** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:52 pm

Kracus wrote:I dunno, it honestly bugs me to see people like you that are educated enough to realize that evolution is obviously how we got here yet still cling on to the idea that there's a god, a christian one at that. I can relate to agnostics but people that call themselves Christian are in a whole other ballfield. You're supporting a group of people obviously opposed to most things scientific. It's not that they don't acknowledge science it's that they need to change their ideals and storys/lies based on new science that's developing. It really wasn't that long ago they didn't even admit the world was even round! how can you as a man of science and a teacher proudly claim to be a Christian? It's like an anti gay calling himself bi!

The whole christian thing is all bull anyway, they have a little ceremony and voila you're christian for life. It's all hogwash and what you make of it but if you voluntarily call yourself a christian you're saying you follow they're ideas. You can't say you're chrisitian but only beleive part of it. In that case you're more of an agnostic, trying desperately to make sense of nothing and finding it by being as vague as humanly possible on the subject.

Evolution man, it stands against everything Christianity represents.

You're making a lot of assumptions about what Christianity might mean to some people. All tnf said was that he was a Christian. That doesn't mean anything that you just posted is true about him. Many Christians simply believe that Jesus was a real person who taught an honorable way of living. It doesn't mean you have to believe in what the Pope or anyone else says.

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:53 pm

Kracus wrote:
tnf wrote:
Kracus wrote: Erm well... if you're a Christian doesn't that mean they've sortof won whether they're right or wrong?
No, because not all Christians are involved or engaged in this debate. in fact, I would be willing to bet that a great proportion of us have no problem with evolution at all. We just tend not to be the vocal voice of the religion, because we are the types who aren't out hold society back with dogmatic fascist style beliefs.

The almost-empty box always rattles the loudest, regardless of the area you are in.

I dunno, it honestly bugs me to see people like you that are educated enough to realize that evolution is obviously how we got here yet still cling on to the idea that there's a god, a christian one at that. I can relate to agnostics but people that call themselves Christian are in a whole other ballfield. You're supporting a group of people obviously opposed to most things scientific. It's not that they don't acknowledge science it's that they need to change their ideals and storys/lies based on new science that's developing. It really wasn't that long ago they didn't even admit the world was even round! how can you as a man of science and a teacher proudly claim to be a Christian? It's like an anti gay calling himself bi!

The whole christian thing is all bull anyway, they have a little ceremony and voila you're christian for life. It's all hogwash and what you make of it but if you voluntarily call yourself a christian you're saying you follow they're ideas. You can't say you're chrisitian but only beleive part of it. In that case you're more of an agnostic, trying desperately to make sense of nothing and finding it by being as vague as humanly possible on the subject.

Evolution man, it stands against everything Christianity represents.

Kracus, don't start.
And no, evolution doesn't.

You keep saying "they're ideals." Perhaps, no, I am sure, that you don't realize that 'they're ideas" are not often the ideals taught by Christ himself.

Read C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity and you might get a clue as to what I'm trying to get at here. Lewis was a brilliant man. Atheist turned Christian. (not implying that it was this decision that made him a brilliant man...but he makes very simple, lucid arguments without getting into a pissing contest of how much scripture he can quote...in fact he quotes virtually none in that book.) He was also an evolutionist (althouth the zealotous Christians who quote him like to ignore this.)

And if you are going to say we can't group all drug users into the 'crackhead' category, why can you group ALL Christians into the 'anti-science' category?

Wait...I just told you to read a book...oops.

Post by **Massive Quasars** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:55 pm

Massive Quasars wrote:You could easily ruin this thread. Easily.

I suggest you stop.

Kracus, take note.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:56 pm

Yeah another fucking book, why don't you just fucking argue your point instead of refering me to a book.

Cause it seems like the only thing you ever do. You don't ever have a point or a reason you just have this oh go read this book yeah cause I can't think on my own but this book told me exactly what to think!

So fuck you and your books.

Post by **werldhed** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:56 pm

Kracus wrote:Evolution man, it stands against everything Christianity represents.

This little tidbit...
I can't think of a single part of Christian philosophy that says you can't support evolution. Nothing.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:57 pm

werldhed wrote:
Kracus wrote:Evolution man, it stands against everything Christianity represents.
This little tidbit...
I can't think of a single part of Christian philosophy that says you can't support evolution. Nothing.

Adam and eve, JUST MAYBE?

Post by **werldhed** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:58 pm

Kracus wrote:
werldhed wrote:
Kracus wrote:Evolution man, it stands against everything Christianity represents.
This little tidbit...
I can't think of a single part of Christian philosophy that says you can't support evolution. Nothing.
Adam and eve, JUST MAYBE?

Adam and Eve have NOTHING to do with Christianity. That's just a story in the bible. Jesus didn't teach about Adam and Eve.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:59 pm

Or insects having 4 legs or the countless other crap that's obviously wrong with the christian bible. I'm just saying, it's obvious it's all bogus but why carry the label of being christian if you beleive in evolution? It makes little sense to me. If you want to say it's your own brand of christianity then that makes you sound even more rediculous cause your basicly admiting christians are wrong and just using what you like cause it suits you.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:59 pm

werldhed wrote:
Kracus wrote:
werldhed wrote: This little tidbit...
I can't think of a single part of Christian philosophy that says you can't support evolution. Nothing.
Adam and eve, JUST MAYBE?
Adam and Eve have NOTHING to do with Christianity. That's just a story in the bible. Jesus didn't teach about Adam and Eve.

Well the story being in a chrisitian bible kinda does make it christian related doesn't it?

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:00 pm

Kracus wrote:Yeah another fucking book, why don't you just fucking argue your point instead of refering me to a book. Cause it seems like the only thing you ever do. You don't ever have a point or a reason you just have this oh go read this book yeah cause I can't think on my own but this book told me exactly what to think!

So fuck you and your books.

Yea Kracus, I just don't have the collective debating and reasoning skills that you possess in the realm of philosophical and scientific debate. Fuck being nice here Kracus, I tried that and am done. Here is the bottom line:

I am so much your intellectual superior, in every aspect of the term, that it is not even worth my time to entertain the incoherent, illogical, poorly thought-out bullshit that you spew here.

And, lastly, SOME TOPICS ARE BIGGER THAN WHAT CAN BE ANSWERED AND DISCUSSED FULLY IN A THREAD ON THE FORUM. SO, THE NEXT LOGICAL PLACE TO GO FOR A FULLY INFORMATIVE DESCRIPTION ON WHAT I AM SAYING IS.....A FUCKING BOOK.

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:02 pm

Kracus wrote:
werldhed wrote:
Kracus wrote:Evolution man, it stands against everything Christianity represents.
This little tidbit...
I can't think of a single part of Christian philosophy that says you can't support evolution. Nothing.
Adam and eve, JUST MAYBE?

Remember when I said...METAPHORICAL? These books are not taken, by many Biblical scholars and Christians, as LITERAL texts.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:04 pm

Funny when I write something it's always taken literaly.

Even when I don't mean it! :icon19:

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:05 pm

Kracus wrote:Or insects having 4 legs or the countless other crap that's obviously wrong with the christian bible. I'm just saying, it's obvious it's all bogus but why carry the label of being christian if you beleive in evolution? It makes little sense to me. If you want to say it's your own brand of christianity then that makes you sound even more rediculous cause your basicly admiting christians are wrong and just using what you like cause it suits you.

Go read "Responses to 101 Questios on God and Evolution" by John F. Haught. Then go read "Deeper than Darwin" by the same author if you want to see how the two subjects do not, in any way, directly contradict.

Or read "The Creation Controversy and the Science Classroom" by the National Science Teachers Association.

YEA, more books.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:05 pm

Besides, it's obvious the bible was a how to book for morality in early civilization of humankind. A tool meant to be used for control of a population.

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:06 pm

Kracus wrote:Funny when I write something it's always taken literaly. Even when I don't mean it! :icon19:

Funny, but that has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. So take MQ's advice.

Post by **werldhed** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:06 pm

Kracus wrote:Well the story being in a chrisitian bible kinda does make it christian related doesn't it?

This is where you're making your mistake. Literal biblical interpretation and Christianity aren't the same thing. Many Christian churches omit parts of the bible. Revelations, for example, is rarely discussed. A book does not a religion make.

edit: oops.. tnf just already mentioned it.

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:07 pm

Kracus wrote:Besides, it's obvious the bible was a how to book for morality in early civilization of humankind. A tool meant to be used for control of a population.

Kracus - Biblical Scholar, Cosmologist...what other 'expert' hats do you wear? And the fact that you've learned so much, while having read so little, is utterly amazing.

Post by **tnf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:08 pm

And now, lets get this back on track.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:09 pm

Yeah sorry tnf I'm through with the book routine, I'm discussing my points on the subject you're simply refusing to. I don't care that's cool if you don't want to talk about then don't talk about it but don't fucking get your panties in a wad when you refuse to talk about it cause "it's too in depth a topic" and refer me to one of your fucking books. You do it EVERY GODAMN time. With the science related shit that's fine, I understood that but now I'm seeing it's not just science it's just on plain questions that can be easily awnsered. I guess I just made a point you couldn't refute. Just admit it instead of tossing the entire discussion aside. IF your so fucking smart it should be a breeze for you to explain why you think you can label yourself chrsitian yet only beleive in certain parts of the bible. Love to hear it.