There's some bad shit going down in Paris right now...

[PhoeniX]

Is this the Daily Mail posting something semi pro-muslim? What's going on.

[seremtan]

iknorite

[Don Carlos]

I wasn't ready for this

Germany vs Netherlands called off btw - concrete evidence of an attack

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34849263

[scared?]

Lol Europe is pulling the 911 hysteria 14 years later... Grow up chumps ...

[seremtan]

JET FUEL CAN'T MELT FRENCH STEEL

[Ryoki]

Not really. ISIS is not Al Qaeda. They don't have the same agenda.

Also, just getting out of the Middle East isn't going to stop ISIS from attacking normal everyday citizens living in the very same country. I'm not saying that getting out of the Middle East wouldn't be beneficial to the west, just that it won't stop religious extremists from being batshit crazy and murdering a bunch of innocent people.

Some analysts believe this may signal a change of strategy by IS - they were never into these AQ type attacks, their narrative was more along the lines of 'be a good muslim and help us fight the infidels in the caliphate', which was / is a hugely succesful one. But now in the span of two weeks we have suicide attacks in Beirut, Yemen, Iraq, the downing of a Russian airliner and the attacks in Paris... and this is not over, you can safely bet more of the same is coming.

What's so depressing is that i can see how you'd be able to destroy an IS, it's militarily a matter of going in there and blowing a lot of folks up. But i'll be damned if i can see a longer term solution to the wider problem of a region in flames, with all sides armed to the fucking teeth and not a secular person amongst them save the one that's a horrible dictator. And if there's no long term solution to this then there's no solution at all; take out IS and do nothing else and there'll only be a successor in a year or so, and they'll be even worse. The only thing i can think of is making sure we don't rely on the region for our energy demands, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

[seremtan]

the problem with 'doing nothing' over Syria is that this leaves a few hundred thousand Syrian refugees in Europe indefinitely, on account of their country being flattened into rubble (mostly by Assad, with some small help from ISIS, USAF and Putin). The country will need to be rebuilt, and I assume we can all agree that it would be better if it wasn't rebuilt by al-Baghdadi & Co according to 7th century specifications

[Don Carlos]

Agreed

[YourGrandpa]

Another problem is nobody can agree on what needs to be done.

[Ryoki]

Well, i sure hope noone is naive enough to assume the refugees will be going home any time soon... even if the war would end tomorrow Europe is going to be the better place to raise your children. Most all of them will be staying of course, which might not be a bad thing in a continent with a birth deficit.

And noone agrees on what needs to be done because there are several different points of interests from the various fighting factions. It would help immensely if it would be possible to talk honestly and seriously about the region, without having to worry about the relationship with countries that act (at best) duplicitous and (at worse) directly counter to Western interests (Gulf States, Saudi Arabia, Turkey). Alas, we're not there at all yet. I'd be surprised if such a conversation would be possible in five years, or ten for that matter.

[YourGrandpa]

So we let em' kill each other for another 5 to 10 years before anyone intervenes?

[Eraser]

So we let em' kill each other for another 5 to 10 years before anyone intervenes?

I don't see the problem.
Pull out all military forces. Sever all relationships. Stop aid support. Let them slaughter everyone in the middle east region and build their own caliphate if they want but stay the fuck away from us. Lets divide the planet into two: one part for normal people and another part for the religious nuts.

[YourGrandpa]

Can't this be negotiated or resolved with embargoes and aid restrictions?

[seremtan]

Well, i sure hope noone is naive enough to assume the refugees will be going home any time soon... even if the war would end tomorrow Europe is going to be the better place to raise your children. Most all of them will be staying of course, which might not be a bad thing in a continent with a birth deficit.

so let them all in and keep them in

Pull out all military forces. Sever all relationships. Stop aid support. Let them slaughter everyone in the middle east region and build their own caliphate if they want but stay the fuck away from us. Lets divide the planet into two: one part for normal people and another part for the religious nuts.

so throw them all out and keep them out

or we could treat them like the refugees they are, and try to fix their broken country so they can go back there one day

[seremtan]

Can't this be negotiated or resolved with embargoes and aid restrictions?

so that the militants take all the resources left for themselves and we get NGOs screaming about the embargoes and aid restrictions are only harming civilians

[seremtan]

[YourGrandpa]

So kill only bad guys and help only good guys?

Sounds simple enough.

[Eraser]

so throw them all out and keep them out

or we could treat them like the refugees they are, and try to fix their broken country so they can go back there one day

Refugees can stay if they can make themselves useful here and don't resort to bombing restaurants and concerts. Small thing to ask.

[YourGrandpa]

Maybe assign each refugee a social worker who can check up on them several times a day/week/month to make sure they aren't going to blow anything up.

That sounds like a worth while option to insure the public's safety.

[obsidian]

The problem with just pulling out is that Daesh isn't as interested in leaving the west alone as they seem to imply. While large territories in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan may have fallen to Daesh, there are areas still in control of coalition forces or other nationals, so if those were to fall too, just think of all the refugees that would produce.

The solution lies in money, arms and ideology. They are still getting a lot of money and weapons to fuel their war. Daesh isn't a legitimate state, they receive their money through criminal activity and smuggling, so normal sanctions won't be effective. The harder challenge lies in ideology, and curbing extremism. Much of the fighters are made up of people who have lived under oppressive regimes, collapsed states, and regions of high corruption and organized crime. This isn't so much an issue of religion (there are plenty of peace loving Muslims in the Western world and in Asia), but of failed and collapsed governments which leaves people seeking extremism out of desperation.

[obsidian]

Maybe assign each refugee a social worker who can check up on them several times a day/week/month to make sure they aren't going to blow anything up.

What do you think the ratio of social workers that are available in a country to the number of refugees are? And if you're going to follow a person around every day and observe exactly what they do, pretty sure that's been done, it's called The Gestapo. I seriously don't know whether you think about what you're saying before sprouting random words together in an attempt to believe that you have some kind of valid opinion.

The refugees are just that, families leaving behind everything that they have in a shit stained war to escape with their lives. For the most part, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and let them live in freedom in the same way that we enjoy. There will be the odd terrorist who sneaks in through the cracks, but if they don't take advantage of the refugee issue, they'll find some other way to sneak in anyway. While security is an issue, it's not nearly as big as the issue of humanitarian support and integration into a foreign society.

[YourGrandpa]

The problem with just pulling out is that Daesh isn't as interested in leaving the west alone as they seem to imply. While large territories in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan may have fallen to Daesh, there are areas still in control of coalition forces or other nationals, so if those were to fall too, just think of all the refugees that would produce.

The solution lies in money, arms and ideology. They are still getting a lot of money and weapons to fuel their war. Daesh isn't a legitimate state, they receive their money through criminal activity and smuggling, so normal sanctions won't be effective. The harder challenge lies in ideology, and curbing extremism. Much of the fighters are made up of people who have lived under oppressive regimes, collapsed states, and regions of high corruption and organized crime. This isn't so much an issue of religion (there are plenty of peace loving Muslims in the Western world and in Asia), but of failed and collapsed governments which leaves people seeking extremism out of desperation.

Cool story bro...

Now what do you do about it and can it be done without killing anyone, especially innocent people?

[YourGrandpa]

What do you think the ratio of social workers that are available in a country to the number of refugees are? And if you're going to follow a person around every day and observe exactly what they do, pretty sure that's been done, it's called The Gestapo. I seriously don't know whether you think about what you're saying before sprouting random words together in an attempt to believe that you have some kind of valid opinion.

The refugees are just that, families leaving behind everything that they have in a shit stained war to escape with their lives. For the most part, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and let them live in freedom in the same way that we enjoy. There will be the odd terrorist who sneaks in through the cracks, but if they don't take advantage of the refugee issue, they'll find some other way to sneak in anyway. While security is an issue, it's not nearly as big as the issue of humanitarian support and integration into a foreign society.

Seriously?

Maybe we should just give the terrorists everything they want and grant citizenship to every refugee that creates. No one dies and we all get new Syrian neighbors. Win win, right?

[obsidian]

Do you seriously think that Daesh wants countries accepting the refugees that they are displacing? The refugees are leaving specifically because they do not agree with the values that are represented by Daesh. Daesh specifically needs a population to control for power. Daesh does NOT want people escaping to the west.

Why do you think they attacked Paris in the first place? Europe was preparing to take in Syrian refugees, Paris was attacked to instill fear and xenophobia, so Europe would out of their own security turn away the refugees. Thankfully, Europe still seems resolute and is continuing with their plan to accept the refugees.

You seem pretty intent on chiming in and being critical to other people's comments here, but you haven't yet shown an understanding of the real issues here, or being able to clearly state your opinion. I'm scrolling back and looking at your posts on this thread and I honestly can't find a single one. Just random statements and a rehashing other people's posts as questions. So in all seriousness, what exactly is your stance on the Syrian refugees and what should we do with them?

[YourGrandpa]

In all your ranting you've clearly missed the piss take. You've also done nothing but point out the obvious (like most do). I'm still waiting to hear the solution to the problem.

What have you got?