Quake3World

make you a better person, more likely to succeed, than those without?


Was the debate on a radio talk show yesterday. I've been asking people I know and getting pretty different answers.

Personally, I feel it doesn't. I've met far too many people with degrees that couldn't tell their asshole from their elbow and too many self-made millionaires with only a high school education.

Success (by material means) seems to be more driven by inspiration and motivation than education. Much like the old adage, 'where there is a will, there is a way'.

There's a big difference between "a better person" and "more likely to succeed." Which one do you mean?

you would feel rather unpleasant if you came into my office and got informed that I was a self-made doctor with self-made education :icon19:

but unfortunately many people do that when they go to an alternative medicine witch doctor

I guess it depends on what you want to study. Even in your field Saturn is there a way to just take the tests and see if you pass? I mean if you can do the tests and pass then technicily you should be qualified to do the job. It's only assumed you HAVE to learn from a teacher at a university which is pretty much true but perhaps it'd be possible to learn it all on your own given access to the neccessary material.

Sucrak, you HAVE to learn medecin. You can't just pass the tests.

Let me elaborate. It's like a trade, there's a hands on component to medecine that you cannot just learn about in a book.

Just because you're learning something on your own doesn't mean you can't practice it physicaly. Don't get me wrong, I'm just saying theoreticaly, it might be possible. Of course you would expect a doctor to have gone to university but it's not the case for all trades, especialy computer skills as an example.

Jackal wrote:Let me elaborate. It's like a trade, there's a hands on component to medecine that you cannot just learn about in a book.

That's a good point, but you have to acknowledge there are many, many fields and trades that do not require much more than being able to remember specifications and token bits of information to perform the job.

There are many fields one can learn on their own and challenge the exams. Hands on experience is only as good as the university you attend can make it and even then, it's still only a small portion of mastering a subject.

saturn wrote:you would feel rather unpleasant if you came into my office and got informed that I was a self-made doctor with self-made education :icon19:

Guess it depends if you passed the same tests 'doctors' did. If you could show your skills were on par with other University trained physcians, why should I be concerned? Knowledge is knowledge right?

I guess this is where the debate comes into play.

Cool Blue wrote:

Jackal wrote:Let me elaborate. It's like a trade, there's a hands on component to medecine that you cannot just learn about in a book.

That's a good point, but you have to acknowledge there are many, many fields and trades that do not require much more than being able to remember specifications and token bits of information to perform the job.

There are many fields one can learn on their own and challenge the exams. Hands on experience is only as good as the university you attend can make it and even then, it's still only a small portion of mastering a subject.

If we're talking about trades then I think you're actually wrong. To learn a trade requires a certain amount of skill. A tradesman is only as good as his finished product.

Yeah but that doesn't mean he can't learn it on his own, say he does have a skill.

I'm sure one could learn the basics on their own but in order to be truly competent one would definately require instruction. That's how humanity works, standing on the shoulders of giants etc.

Jackal wrote:

Cool Blue wrote:

Jackal wrote:Let me elaborate. It's like a trade, there's a hands on component to medecine that you cannot just learn about in a book.

That's a good point, but you have to acknowledge there are many, many fields and trades that do not require much more than being able to remember specifications and token bits of information to perform the job.

There are many fields one can learn on their own and challenge the exams. Hands on experience is only as good as the university you attend can make it and even then, it's still only a small portion of mastering a subject.

If we're talking about trades then I think you're actually wrong. To learn a trade requires a certain amount of skill. A tradesman is only as good as his finished product.

Nah, we're not talking trades. Trades are skills build over time, through practive and knowledge.

We're just talking degrees.

Jackal wrote:I'm sure one could learn the basics on their own but in order to be truly competent one would definately require instruction. That's how humanity works, standing on the shoulders of giants etc.

I'm not arguing that, I'm saying it's possible to do both. Learn and practice on your own. I agree that with many things it'd obviously be a great advantage to have a teacher but with the proper material and enough money it might be possible to do without. Especialy when you concider computer technology. I've been to college to learn about computers it may have been a pretty cookie cutter college course but I still got some fundamentals. Given the right attitude with what I already know it wouldn't be difficult for me to learn more without the need for a teacher, although one would certainly quicken the process.

I could learn how to code C or C++ for example without any knowledge on how to do it presently.

Cool Blue wrote:

saturn wrote:you would feel rather unpleasant if you came into my office and got informed that I was a self-made doctor with self-made education :icon19:

Guess it depends if you passed the same tests 'doctors' did. If you could show your skills were on par with other University trained physcians, why should I be concerned? Knowledge is knowledge right?

I guess this is where the debate comes into play.

neh, medicine requires academical schooling. It has many parts where you do need 'physical' training. Surgeons do have to practice and start with small operations before they can progress into more intricate surgery. But your background is always academical, you have learned thousands of diseases, the whole human physiology, the whole anatomy, etc. because you will need that in the field to make good judgements. Processing that all into problem-solving thinking, you will need to cope with ever-changing situations. What you've learned 10 years ago is likely to be outdated and you have to keep yourself up-to-date as well.

Soon I have to register myself for some law that keeps a database of all doctors, dentists, physiotherapists, nurses, etc.
I will have to show me my university grade and MD paper. Only with that registration I can practice medicine, and I will have to keep myself schooled with courses for example. If I want to become a specialist like a surgeon I will have to specialize another 6 years to become registered as a surgeon and after that I have to keep practicing otherwise I will lose the title/registration as surgeon (after 5 years).

But it depends on what specialisation you're going to do as well. I think you could get away with being a fake GP for a while.

hmm....i might have misread that post a bit

Kracus wrote:

Jackal wrote:I'm sure one could learn the basics on their own but in order to be truly competent one would definately require instruction. That's how humanity works, standing on the shoulders of giants etc.

I'm not arguing that, I'm saying it's possible to do both. Learn and practice on your own. I agree that with many things it'd obviously be a great advantage to have a teacher but with the proper material and enough money it might be possible to do without. Especialy when you concider computer technology. I've been to college to learn about computers it may have been a pretty cookie cutter college course but I still got some fundamentals. Given the right attitude with what I already know it wouldn't be difficult for me to learn more without the need for a teacher, although one would certainly quicken the process.

I could learn how to code C or C++ for example without any knowledge on how to do it presently.

For a lot of academical courses it's even required to study on your own without interference or guidance of a teacher. But it's damn handy at times.

Yeah I know, I learned a lot of things on my own like HTML and AIML and XML, using flash and other computer tools but I know I could have learned the same things that took me a month or so in a week with someone showing me what to do. It's all a matter of time I guess, but I'm not trying to say you could be a doctor without a teacher. Something like that obviously would need a doctor. Maybe if you were somekind of eccentric billionaire...

Kracus wrote:Yeah I know, I learned a lot of things on my own like HTML and AIML and XML, using flash and other computer tools but I know I could have learned the same things that took me a month or so in a week with someone showing me what to do. It's all a matter of time I guess, but I'm not trying to say you could be a doctor without a teacher. Something like that obviously would need a doctor. Maybe if you were somekind of eccentric billionaire...

HTML, XML, programming, etc are easily learned from a book. You just learn the language. But if you want to develop skills it's easier to have a teacher like Jackal already said. My piano teacher shaved years off my piano training :icon19:

btw, even if you had all the money you couldn't be a proper doctor cause you would need to train in a teaching hospital and would need trainloads of patients to get streamlined in the process of diagnostics, treatment, etc, blabla

Yeah actualy I didn't learn it using any books, I learned everything I had to online.

Everybody learns Kracus, all the time. I even learn from a dog sniffing his arse. Doesn't mean you will write decent code in your life, ever.

I've already written a database using access that's pretty impressive for my first piece of work. It's able to extrapolate families from a list of only names and info like address and phone #.

Kracus wrote:Yeah actualy I didn't learn it using any books, I learned everything I had to online.

how is a book different from reading online?

It's less expensive.