Quake3World

This is a very early alpha build...literally about 50 mins work.
Am running out of server space so I wont post screen shots as this is butt ugly right now.

After watching some Quakecon matches I got rather inspired to try some tourney layouts.

I would really do with some feedback on layout and item placement.

Everything is temporary, it's all ugly as sin atm. The ramps are temporary too, didn't want to build stairs until the layout is nailed down.

d/l link: HERE


Thanks in advance folks.

I gave it a run; the flow is good but there are some issues. First of all the ground floor is really flat and could need some height variation. Having the balance in mind I'd like to see the YA area having a height advantage over the RA area. Speaking of that the RA area doesn't allow strategic attacking or the setting up of traps atm as it's fairly open and easy to controle with the rail from the upper level. What about having a drop down at where the RA is right now and putting the RA down there. Then give that RA room another exit. Also some pillar on the mid level would help giving the area more strategic possibilities.
Besides that I think the map needs a better structure in general - in terms of visible doorway and room structure. The upper area feels like 1 big room and gives it all a pretty box map like feeling. Then the high level has a simular problem like the low one. It's very flat and lacks smaller height variations. Also all the armors are all on the lower levels - the only reason for a player to go up there is the RG. Maybe get another YA up there.

To sum it up you should just close things a bit more - atm it seems to be very rail heavy and the rail is not very hard to get. It might certainly be hard for a player out of controle to come back.

RA, Mega, YA and Medkit may be picked up within seconds of each other. I don't recommend having a medkit in a tourney map since you have a MH already, but with some tweaking you might be able to make it work. The balance seems quite off at this point, so I won't comment any further on the item placement.

http://www.quake-live.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=237

Take a look at the topviews of the tourney maps on this page. They show a lot about how one should make a 1v1 map. Notice the separate areas that are designated to particular items or weapons. This sense of separation between the items is key in creating a balance between armors and weapons.

I will likely comment later in production. Stick with it.

Uh, medkit!? It's apparently not on the map in cpma.. Well, anyway, a map shouldn't have a medkit except if it's a ctf map.

cityy wrote:Uh, medkit!? It's apparently not on the map in cpma.. Well, anyway, a map shouldn't have a medkit except if it's a ctf map.

I don't know, it could be interesting to have a medkit rather than a MH. I haven't really seen it done before, but I agree. So far CTF is the only plausible choice for a medkit.

After few minutes of jumping around:

-too open, really look like RA3 map, not 1v1 :/
-the worst thing if you ask me, is that you can see RA and YA at the same moment. With RG you can control them.
-remove MK if you really want 1v1 map

Those are base/most important things to consider. Please fix those, and lets play next version .

I just can associate myself with the general feedback. It lacks structure and is too wide open at the moment.
Try to add more depth to the areas and make it easier to distinguish each, also with the items you put there.

Good to see you mapping though. You always released very stylish and unique maps..

Add some textures, it's confusing. Good map though.

Thanks so far guys.
I am not gonna texture or detail at all till I find a gud layout. I have made that mistake so so often. I know I can build and texture stuff...I really really want to marry that with a really competitive level in terms of layout and items....will keep working on this.
I have a question though, in the tourney matches I watched at QuakeCon, there was MH and MediKit...so I take it this isn't normal?

//edit forgot to say....

I have often been criticised for room/corridor/room building, which probably accounts for openness, I was also trying to leave space to fill in without loosing player space to move.

There is no medkit in any duel map of the quakecon map pool.

Really, Medkit is such a FFA item...

Hipshot wrote:Really, Medkit is such a FFA item...

I could definitely see it in a FFA, but I also love how it is placed on Siberia and Ironworks. They really work in CTF both as a good offensive and defensive tool.

@donkeyFor 1v1, however, it doesn't really... work. It's essentially a MH with a trigger, but it's pretty pointless if there can be a MH. MH will be much more useful since it will add to your stack. 200-200 > 100-200 (+100 health later). It's good for escapes, but not for fights. A player will be more likely to run away than be strong enough to fight if Medkit is substituted for MH. Having both on a map is overkill.

I agree, MK on 1vs1 isn't a good idea. If you're the "down" player you can wear a player down in health with a lot of work only to have him magically go back up to 100% instantly, that just makes it too powerful of an item for 1vs1 and super annoying.

Anthem, what I meant was, that it's not good for 1v1 really. I mean, it works great in CTF and similar, but not 1v1.
For the very reasons obsidian stated, it adds a random factor that you don't want in 1v1.

@obsidian: 125%, not 100% which is even worse.

Hipshot wrote:Anthem, what I meant was, that it's not good for 1v1 really. I mean, it works great in CTF and similar, but not 1v1.
For the very reasons obsidian stated, it adds a random factor that you don't want in 1v1.

Oh, the bottom portion of my post wasn't directed at you. Just the top portion. I agreed with you 100%.


Edit:


@donkey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58

Watch that video. It has some nice game analysis. It explains several aspects of how a typical tourney game is played, and you may find it helpful to your map planning.

I'd say having both MH and the medkit as it stands is really overkill. Unless you place one of them in a spot that would be a challenge to get. But even then it seems to be to much and total domination.

I feel there are to many ramps. Maybe cutting out some of them and turning them in to catwalks and placing a couple more BP's. Maybe adding an extra level for more vertical to go with what ya got.

Can't comment really on anything else like lighting and textures and stuff...... But the bot's did seem to play pretty decent for this being an alpha phase. I'll wait til your next alpha launch.

Michael
ShadowZombie

dONKEY wrote:Thanks so far guys.
I am not gonna texture or detail at all till I find a gud layout. I have made that mistake so so often. I know I can build and texture stuff...I really really want to marry that with a really competitive level in terms of layout and items....will keep working on this.
I have a question though, in the tourney matches I watched at QuakeCon, there was MH and MediKit...so I take it this isn't normal?

//edit forgot to say....

I have often been criticised for room/corridor/room building, which probably accounts for openness, I was also trying to leave space to fill in without loosing player space to move.

That's what I meant, I though you were going to release the map with those exact textures.

As mentioned in the first post, it's an alpha map. Meaning there are no details or textures yet, just working out the layout and item placements.

Beta means that the bulk of the layout is pretty much locked in and you are working out the visuals and details.

Release Candidate (RC) or final beta means it is 99.9% done and you just need to check for last minute glitches.

Yep . There can be a pre-alpha or pre-beta too.

Thanks for help so far. I have extended the level, increased connectivity and flow and re organised items. Would be very grateful if you could take a look.
CLICKY

Ok, I think the RA are should only have 1 exit. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense because the RA would be an easy pickup. Also it should be possible to RJ out of the RA dropdown. I don't think the new LG room is nessecary - rather invest in connecting lower and upper level. I like that you made a new connection there where the YA is on the upper level; though I think the long path between the GL ammo and the YA isn't really cool. You might want to look into making that shorter or removing it at all and moving the JP + the YA.

Hmm. I agree on what city said on that YA path. The LG room is useless and way too large. It's a hall and it's not the only room with that problem. The rooms on the lower level near RA also seem useless atm. And run through the map with LG and count the spots where you can't hit the other wall. Nothing except the RG makes sense in many of the locations. All those ramps going up and down and those corridors felt random. And they are so long because the scale of the rooms is off for tourney. They also create long LOS problems in a few spots. The whole layout needs to be much more compact imo.

Maybe I just didn't get the idea behind this map or you made some rooms so big because you intend to fill the space with models or whatever?

hehe, I did say I need work with layouts!! Think a restart is called for

I gotta agree with spirit. This doesn't feel like a real map. Feels more like a bunch of random ramps and blocks of different sizes put together. If I were you I'd spend more time envisioning realistic spaces to fight in. I often enjoy looking at the id Software maps with super toned down graphics (like Quake Live) just to appreciate the playing spaces as they are stripped down to their essence. For me, making great maps isn't about how much detail you can add during beta, it's the quality of those original forms that ultimately decides how your map looks, feels, and plays in the end.

A good layout often takes much longer than an hour or two to put together. For me, the beginning phase takes more creative effort to complete than any other.

Not to worry though. I have made layouts that look exactly like this . I think it's an important phase that every mapper should go through. Eventually I realized that just understanding the qualities of good gameplay isn't enough to create a truly great layout.

-pat