Quake3World

Hello Docs,

So, in the states there is an television informercial that is on almost very day called "1001 cures THEY don't want you to know about." The tone of the book is basically that the medical industry has worked to KEEP people sick so that they can continue selling them drugs. The author of the book states that there are cures for type I and type II diabetes, cancers of all types, MS, etc...pretty much every condition there is. He doesn't give any details on the commercial, because obviously he wants to sell his book, but he does mention one 'alternative treatment' that, in his mind, both exposes the lies of the medical and drug industries and works well to cure the problem.

Before I get to my question, I'll say real quick that I am of the opinion that there are probably some natural herbs, etc., that may be beneficial in some cases - and may also be harmful due to drug interactions, etc. So I am not a big fan of 'alternative medicine.' I am a supporter of medicine (natural, alternative, whatever) whose effects can be supported in controlled studies, not just anecdotal tales.

Now, onto my question -

The author states that acid reflux disease is actually not caused by excessive acid, but by an acid deficiency. He states that antacids work by shutting down or neutralizing all of your bodies acid, which then causes it to really crank up the production of acid. This 'overcompensation' results in better digestion (he mistakenly calls stomach acid a digestive 'enzyme'...but we won't go into the things like trypsin, pepsin, etc.). To prove his point, he tells a story of a man he met with acid reflux. He tells the dude to drink a tablespoon of vinegar (acetic acid) and says "if this makes you worse, you have excess acid. If it makes you better, you don't have enough." According to his story, the acid worked.

Now, I think the dude is pretty much full of shit, proton pump inhibitors don't just 'neutralize the acid' instantly, and many work for long periods of time...which if you take them as directed once or twice a day religiously, you aren't going to get that huge influx of acid production into the stomach.

But have you ever heard of anything like this treatment for acid reflux before? Giving someone more acid when they have the problem?

Yeah, it's called homeopathy

There is supposed to be a recognized rebound of stomach acid production in some people on PPIs, but only when they stop taking them; but that all just falls under responsible treatment. I don't tend to use PPIs and H2-blockers as a first line, except prophylactically in elderly patients on NSAIDS, because they used to have a problem which this guy is distorting somewhat, which is that PPIs used to heal ulcers, which then came back as soon as the drug was stopped, putting people in a sort of "drug for life" situation. If you give PPIs without arranging for adequate follw-up, by the time you scope the patient, the problem can be invisible. But he's horribly out of date, because we subsequently discovered H. pylori, the eradication of which has completely revolutionized ulcer therapy.

It's all standard issue conspiracy theory, though. Doctors don't need to make people unwell; people are good enough at making themselves unwell already

BTW, apparently drug companies recently donated 1 billion dollars towards treating (I think it was) filariasis in the third world. They set up a big press conference and no one came, because the press don't want drug companies to look like the good guy :retard:

heh, Helicobacter Pylori was discovered to be the cause of peptic ulcers back in 1984.

I'm absolutely no fan of alternative medicine, cause alternative means that it's not scientifically proven, often unfounded theories that offer unfounded treatments. Of course there are some alternative therapies that might be effective like acupuncture, such a shame it can't be tested in a double-blind randomized trial

I worked with helicobacter and campylobacter in grad school during a lab rotation. Looked at the internalization of c.jejuni by intestinal epithelial cells.

saturn wrote:heh, Helicobacter Pylori was discovered to be the cause of peptic ulcers back in 1984.

I'm absolutely no fan of alternative medicine, cause alternative means that it's not scientifically proven, often unfounded theories that offer unfounded treatments. Of course there are some alternative therapies that might be effective like acupuncture, such a shame it can't be tested in a double-blind randomized trial

Read a good article that metioned that there really is no alternative medicine. There are treatments that hold up to scientific studies, and there are those that don't. Many treatments branded 'alternative' do not hold up under double blind studies, so, rather than call them ineffective, they get marketed as 'alternative' and millions of people buy them up.

tnf, I don't know much about acid reflux, other than that there are a number of things that can probably cause it, so there are probably different ways of treating it.
However, I doubt there is a conspiracy to keep people ill. On one hand, if drug companies do their own R&D research, that is a lot of investment for ungauranteed results. It would seem more likely that they would stick with the drugs we already have and not worry about developing new ones -- too much money down the drain.

If it's independent or not-for-profit research, funding typically comes from the gov't, so doctors and pharms don't have much say in what drugs are researched. Thus, they don't have a way to prevent cures from emerging.

And it's not like doc's don't help cure people of diseases... Many cancers, for instance, have very high treatment rates; much of the current research for new cancer drugs are simply to reduce side effects, etc. Of course, I'd have to actually read the book to know what he's really on about.

I don't believe that there is a consipiracy to keep people ill by any means...I don't agree with the opinion of the guy, I was just explaining his position before I got into this specific example.

I am pretty well versed in how clinical trials work - I had to take a biotechnology class in graduate school that required us to do all the R and D (on paper) for a 'new' drug. Patent research as well. Real pain in the ass.

My only question was - has there ever been a case of perceived acid reflux actually, clinically, being diagnosed as the result of abnormally LOW normal levels of stomach acid, as the guy on TV claimed.
He completely misrepresents how PPIs work (because there wouldn't be this rush of acid as he mentions since they don't 'neutralize' all the stomach acid directly.)

I've not read the book, nor do I really want to, because I am sure it is just unadulterated bullshit. When I hear the word 'cure' mentioned for a disease that is the result of a GENETIC problem, it drives me nuts.

I look at these ads, though, and figure that if this guy is selling books (which he must be), I should be able to take advantage of his customers' ignorance as well. He claims that cancer is curable with herbal supplements. Diabetes (type I and II) are curable. Multiple sclerosis is curable and is simply caused by a common food additive. The guy is just making a buck by cashing in on desperate people's hopes. He portrays the docs and drug companies as evil, money driven businessmen in an effort to help support his cause. As funny as it is to listen to his bullshit (from a scientific standpoint), it really is quite tragic when you consider how many people probably abandon traditional medical care with the herbs and spices recommended in this book.

Plus, all the herbs and shit he mentions....JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS NATURAL DOESN'T MEAN IT IS 100% SAFE. God I get sick of having to explain that to people, especially a certain relative I have who is into alternative shit. I remember trying to explain to her why it was simply impossible for her little jar of pollen (can't remember the plant) was not 100% pure....I was trying to explain to her how expensive lab grade reagents can be...and how going from 99.9% pure to 99.999% pure is quite a difference....but people who buy alternative shit don't think about things like manufacturing and purification processes.

Any of you gents read anything about wild spice or herb oils? I heard an interesting piece on NPR a couple days ago about wild oregano oil having great germicidal properties. This doctor also claimed that it could cure Hep C.
He didn't sound like too much of a fruitbat, but I'm no pharmacology expert...
Opinions?

tnf wrote:I don't believe that there is a consipiracy to keep people ill by any means...I don't agree with the opinion of the guy, I was just explaining his position before I got into this specific example.

Bah... I should've read your original post more closely; I just skipped most of the reflux part because I don't know much about the medical side of it. I still think it's probable that reflux can be caused by numerous things, so there can be many different effective treatments. Whether ppi's are one of them, I don't know.

In all though, I agree with you: I don't like lumping treatment into "medical" and "alternative" drugs because as long as it is proven to work, that's what's important.
That said, as an immunologist, I like to believe that drugs should be a last resort and that the immune system can naturally take care of most infectious diseases as long as it's kept top-notch. Homeopathy can be good, if done correctly. However, when my friends say they never take drugs, but daily ingest elderberry juice because it keeps them healthy, I have to ask them if they really are relying on accurate data to support their claims. Drugs are drugs whether they're natural or synthetic, and like you said, they can both be toxic. In fact, one of the JAK3 inhibitors I'm working with right now is plant-derived. It's hard to explain that to people when they think, "But you work in a lab, so it's not a natural treatment."

werldhed wrote:

tnf wrote:I don't believe that there is a consipiracy to keep people ill by any means...I don't agree with the opinion of the guy, I was just explaining his position before I got into this specific example.

Bah... I should've read your original post more closely; I just skipped most of the reflux part because I don't know much about the medical side of it. I still think it's probable that reflux can be caused by numerous things, so there can be many different effective treatments. Whether ppi's are one of them, I don't know.

In all though, I agree with you: I don't like lumping treatment into "medical" and "alternative" drugs because as long as it is proven to work, that's what's important.
That said, as an immunologist, I like to believe that drugs should be a last resort and that the immune system can naturally take care of most infectious diseases as long as it's kept top-notch. Homeopathy can be good, if done correctly. However, when my friends say they never take drugs, but daily ingest elderberry juice because it keeps them healthy, I have to ask them if they really are relying on accurate data to support their claims. Drugs are drugs whether they're natural or synthetic, and like you said, they can both be toxic. In fact, one of the JAK3 inhibitors I'm working with right now is plant-derived. It's hard to explain that to people when they think, "But you work in a lab, so it's not a natural treatment."

Do you know what the core principle of homeopathic medicine is? It isn't just alternative herbs and whatnot. It is diluting something down to an almost (or completely) untraceable level in water, and believing that the original compound you diluted has left some sort of 'essence' in the water...changing it somehow. At least that is how its been described to me by people who support it.

Complete bunk, but it might trigger a placebo effect, which can have dramatic impacts on how people feel.

As for JAK...funny thing, the breast cancer research grant I wrote dealt with the JAK2/Stat5a signalling pathway - prolactin and progesterone modulated activity of it...upregulating a certain anti-apoptotic protein that has been shown to be expressed in various tumors (I don't know if I can say the name of the protein because I believe the research is still being done, and I don't think they've got a paper out yet, and I don't know that anyone else was working on it....but that was a few years back...)

Yeah, I know the original theory behind homeopathy, and that's why I said I think it can work if it's done correctly. The whole dilution thing is a pile shite (although I think a recent study showed results from highly diluted drugs, but I can't remember where I read that), but the idea that you can "kick start" your body with similar stressors has potential, imo. Getting your immune system into action when it isn't properly responding, for instance. Obviously there's much more to it than that, but if the theory is there, I'm all for regarding it as a potential. In a way, my definition of homeopathy is more related to flu vaccines and not all that alchemy junk. :icon26:

Yeah, the society for debunking homeopathy, or whatever they're called, recently demonstrated what appeared to be a homeopathic effect on a bunch of cells in a petri dish - so you're pretty certain there's no placebo effect. Pretty embarassing for them. It was either in the BMJ or the NEJM, can't remember which.

There is some evidence suggesting that homeopathy might have some effect, as Geebs noted.

If ultra-diluted solutions truly retain some sort of imprint of the original drug, there could be profound implications. I'm not holding my breath though. Such profound claims need to be backed up by equally profound evidence.

Just take some anti-biotics.

See, I can be a Doctor. That's all they ever fucking say.

"Yes it's terminal cancer. Here, take these anti-biotics"

Geebs wrote:Yeah, the society for debunking homeopathy, or whatever they're called, recently demonstrated what appeared to be a homeopathic effect on a bunch of cells in a petri dish - so you're pretty certain there's no placebo effect. Pretty embarassing for them. It was either in the BMJ or the NEJM, can't remember which.

Interesting, because I've read reviews of studies that have shown the opposite. But I'll have to dig way back to figure out what journal it was...maybe JAMA, but not sure.

Massive Quasars wrote:There is some evidence suggesting that homeopathy might have some effect, as Geebs noted.

If ultra-diluted solutions truly retain some sort of imprint of the original drug, there could be profound implications. I'm not holding my breath though. Such profound claims need to be backed up by equally profound evidence.

If there is any effect, I still would guess it would be due to the almost untraceable amounts of the original substance. I cannot, at the moment, accept the idea that there is literally an "imprint" left in the H2O molecules...but we'll see I guess.

No one has offered any sort of mechanism for memory of water. The sad thing about it is the guy who came up with the concept was a very well respected immunologist (name was Benveniste or something) who discovered Platelet Activating Factor, and got absolutely crucified by the scientific establishment. But is sequence of claims was exactly like an abductee or one of those people who say they're Jesus: started off semi-believable, got more elaborate and ended up claiming that he could transmit this "memory of water" over the internet. To me that sounds like a very bright guy succumbing to mental illness rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead.

When I say profound implications, I don't mean for medicine necessarily. If the results pan out, physicists may be most affected.

tnf wrote:

Massive Quasars wrote:If there is any effect, I still would guess it would be due to the almost untraceable amounts of the original substance.

I cannot, at the moment, accept the idea that there is literally an "imprint" left in the H2O molecules...but we'll see I guess.

It's (theoretically) possible to store data at the quantum level (molecule > atom > quark > etc). There's still the issue of retrieving said data.

EDIT: god, fscked up the quoting again. Corrected, though.

^misantropia^ wrote:

tnf wrote:

Massive Quasars wrote:If there is any effect, I still would guess it would be due to the almost untraceable amounts of the original substance.

I cannot, at the moment, accept the idea that there is literally an "imprint" left in the H2O molecules...but we'll see I guess.

It's (theoretically) possible to store data at the quantum level (molecule > atom > quark > etc). There's still the issue of retrieving said data.

EDIT: god, fscked up the quoting again. Corrected, though.

I understand that. But I don't think it is information stored in the quantum states of subatomic particles that would be responsible for the triggering of signal transduction pathways that would result in a change in the target cells.

Exactly. If information stored on the quantum level can affect signal transduction, why would receptors evolve?

An April 2005 study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=15801940
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Self treatment with one of three self selected, ultramolecular homeopathic medicines for the prevention of upper respiratory tract infections in children. A double-blind randomized placebo controlled trial.

Steinsbekk A, Bentzen N, Fonnebo V, Lewith G.

Department of Public Health and General Practice, Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU), Trondheim, Norway.

Aims Homeopathic medicines are frequently purchased over the counter (OTC). Respiratory complaints are the most frequent reason for such purchases. Children with upper respiratory tract infection (URTI) are frequent users of homeopathy. This study investigates the effect of self treatment with one of three self selected ultramolecular homeopathic medicines for the prevention of childhood URTI. Methods A double-blind randomized parallel group placebo controlled trial was carried out in 251 children below the age of 10 years, recruited by post from those previously diagnosed with URTI when attending a casualty department. The children were randomly assigned to receive either placebo or ultramolecular homeopathic medicines in C-30 potency (diluted 10(-60)) administered twice weekly for 12 weeks. Parents chose the medicine based on simplified constitutional indications for the three medicines most frequently prescribed by Norwegian homeopaths for this group of patients. The main outcome measure relates to the prevention of new episodes of URTI measured with median total symptom score over 12 weeks. Results There was no difference in the predefined primary outcome between the two groups (P = 0.733). Median URTI scores over 12 weeks in the homeopathic medicine group were 26.0 (95% confidence interval (CI) 16.3, 43.7) and for placebo 25.0 (95% CI 14.2, 38.4). There was no statistical difference between the two groups in median number of days with URTI symptoms or in the use of conventional medication/care. Conclusions In this study there was no effect over placebo for self treatment with one of three self selected, ultramolecular homeopathic medicines in preventing childhood URTI. This can be due to the lack of effect of the highly diluted homeopathic medicines or the process of selection and type of medicines.

PMID: 15801940 [PubMed - in process]

One time I almost lost it and got mad at a patient (in a GP office). She wanted to discuss the side-effects and dangers of vaccinating her 10 month old baby. 95 percent of the infants in Holland get a strict schedule of vaccination against difteria, polio, etc. She didn't participate cause she believed in Homeopathical dilutions of the vaccins, which means that her baby wasn't protected at all (so far the child is protected cause 95 percent is vaccinated).

We got in an argument cause she looked on the internet about homeopathy and she was absolutely convinced about the effects it had, she wasn't open for any normal reasoning nor open for normal medical treatments.

It's ok if an adult patient decides to go the alternative/homeopath way, but a baby can't protect nor decide for itself. It needs a goddamn sensible mother, not some pseudo-scientifical/intellectual mother that thinks that every site on the INTERNET is the absolute truth.

LOL INTERNET

Geebs wrote:Exactly. If information stored on the quantum level can affect signal transduction, why would receptors evolve?

We win this one Geebs. Quantum homeopathy is now dead.

Score 1 for the traditional scientists.