Quake3World

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/ ... 65,00.html


rofl...

More to the point I read the authors name (Henry Porter) as Harry Potter.

So ID cards are bad because?

i've been learning a little bit about this in one of my classes this term. it doesnt seem like it but you'd be giving up a lot of your privacy by having to posses one of these cards. it really takes the concept of a big brother government one step further. like the article said, these cards will allow the government to track a shitload of information on you. then other businesses can look up the in information and make biased decisions regarding you.

here this might put things into perspective a bit:
http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

also the chances for identity theft are out there too. people could literally walk by you with scanners and scan your personal information stored on your card. a joke was made that you're gonna hafta start wraping your cards in tinfoil.

I don't really see a problem with them. If someone stole my wallet they'd know practically everything about me anyway.

PhoeniX wrote:More to the point I read the authors name (Henry Porter) as Harry Potter.

PhoeniX wrote:I don't really see a problem with them. If someone stole my wallet they'd know practically everything about me anyway.

yeah but people wouldn't have to steal your wallet to get all this information. this would actually make it easier to get your peronsal info.

bitWISE wrote:So ID cards are bad because?

I don't want the government tracking me--that's what credit cards are for
I already have ID in the form of a drivers license
I don't want to live in a culture where I have to "present my papers"
I don't want private business to have access to my information
The security of the technology is weak, according to that article. Anyone with an RFID reader can nab your personal code over their air with little difficulty.
You no longer own your identity... According the article, the UK government (and ours as well, I'm sure) will be able to revoke your card with a half baked excuse

That's one of the scarier parts about id cards. The eventual plan is for them to be required in order to obtain nearly any kind of goods or services. With them being centrally controlled by the federal government, it would be as easy for them to revoke as a driver's license. In which case, you wouldn't be able to go to the bank and get your own money out without going through some sort of federal appeal process - which process noone has even considered yet.

The entire idea is ridiculous for more reasons than that.

Someone people have radically different views of what government's role should be.

PhoeniX wrote:I don't really see a problem with them. If someone stole my wallet they'd know practically everything about me anyway.

Would they know where you shopped last saturday, or that you spend every thursday evening in the pub and spend an average of £34.32 on alcohol in a week?

It's bollocks. The idea that one would be legally required to carry something about one's person when simply walking around on the street every day is absurd, yet here it is being pretty much forced through.

Also, as for not seeing the problem with it, can you see a benefit to it? There isn't much. Plus it'll be £90 you have to fork out to get one, and it's mandatory to have one. Think of it as a one-time mandatory extra tax of £90. For everyone.

What a load of shit.

Dave wrote:

bitWISE wrote:So ID cards are bad because?

I don't want the government tracking me--that's what credit cards are for
I already have ID in the form of a drivers license
I don't want to live in a culture where I have to "present my papers"
I don't want private business to have access to my information
The security of the technology is weak, according to that article. Anyone with an RFID reader can nab your personal code over their air with little difficulty.
You no longer own your identity... According the article, the UK government (and ours as well, I'm sure) will be able to revoke your card with a half baked excuse

1) I don't really want that either. That is the only real problem I have with a super ID card. I really don't care if people know what I do but I could see it being abused.
2) So what's the difference if we had a single, nationwide driver's license?
3) You already have to if you buy cigarettes/alcohol/porn
4) They shouldn't have free access to the info. From what I gathered in that article it was being used a replacement for filling out forms with the same personal information. If you use any "shopper's cards" the store already has a profile of your personal habits.
5) I agree that RFID is a bad idea atm but credit card style or smart card style would be ok.
6) Yeah, you shouldn't be able to lose your ID unless you are being deported.

I think that given the right implementation, ID cards are a good idea.

why

Dave wrote: I don't want the government tracking me--that's what credit cards are for
I already have ID in the form of a drivers license
I don't want to live in a culture where I have to "present my papers"
I don't want private business to have access to my information
The security of the technology is weak, according to that article. Anyone with an RFID reader can nab your personal code over their air with little difficulty.
You no longer own your identity... According the article, the UK government (and ours as well, I'm sure) will be able to revoke your card with a half baked excuse

I didn't give this prospect much thought not too long ago, not understanding what the big deal was.

I'm the farthest thing from a luddite, but for reasons including and not limited to the ones you've outline above I strongly oppose any national ID card. I think it's more likely that this will pass in the UK before it does in the US and Canada, but we may not be far behind.

What would you get out of having one? How would it benefit anyone aside from the government, and whoever they decide to share the information with?

R00k wrote:What would you get out of having one? How would it benefit anyone aside from the government, and whoever they decide to share the information with?

Convenience. Consolidate all your documents into a single card and not have to fill out any forms when applying for something. I haven't given a ton of thought to it but thats what comes to mind.

That's giving up a whole lot of things - including control of your own identity - for the convenience of not having to fill out paperwork.

And £90 for the priveledge, plus it being mandatory.

bitWISE wrote:1) I don't really want that either. That is the only real problem I have with a super ID card. I really don't care if people know what I do but I could see it being abused.

You've described your acceptable amount of government intrusion into your life, should others be forced to accept this arbitrary limit as well?

2) So what's the difference if we had a single, nationwide driver's license?

You have neither currently, and a nationwide driver's license could effectively function de faco as a national ID card.

3) You already have to if you buy cigarettes/alcohol/porn

Voluntary.

4) They shouldn't have free access to the info. From what I gathered in that article it was being used a replacement for filling out forms with the same personal information. If you use any "shopper's cards" the store already has a profile of your personal habits.

Voluntary.

5) I agree that RFID is a bad idea atm but credit card style or smart card style would be ok.

We sign up voluntarily for those cards, as opposed to one centralized nationally mandated ID card.

6) Yeah, you should be able to lose your ID unless you are being deported.

Huh?

I think that given the right implementation, ID cards are a good idea.

Good, then voluntarily sign up for one yourself and don't force it upon everyone.

Massive Quasars wrote:

6) Yeah, you should be able to lose your ID unless you are being deported.

Huh?

I think that given the right implementation, ID cards are a good idea.

Good, then voluntarily sign up for one yourself and don't force it upon everyone.

I meant they shouldn't be able to revoke the card unless you were no longer a citizen.

I'm hardly forcing anyone to do anything. Just trying to look at things from a different angle for once.

bitWISE wrote:I meant they shouldn't be able to revoke the card unless you were no longer a citizen.

Ok.

I'm hardly forcing anyone to do anything. Just trying to look at things from a different angle for once.

Fair enough, I tried not to come off too harshly. Does your different angle include voluntary national ID cards? If so, can you guarantee that voluntary won't become mandatory as the government becomes more reliant upon these cards? A slippery slope argument isn't appropriate for every situation, but here it seems justifiably applicable.

Massive Quasars wrote:

bitWISE wrote:I meant they shouldn't be able to revoke the card unless you were no longer a citizen.

Ok.

I'm hardly forcing anyone to do anything. Just trying to look at things from a different angle for once.

Fair enough, I tried not to come off too harshly. Does your different angle include voluntary national ID cards? If so, can you guarantee that voluntary won't become mandatory as the government becomes more reliant upon these cards? A slippery slope argument isn't appropriate for every situation, but here it seems justifiably applicable.

TBH, I haven't really thought much about it. When I first heard about national RFID cards I took the same stance as you guys. I don't agree with it but at the same time I'm not completely against it. It's never really made sense to me that each state has its own driver's license and then to travel out of the country you have to get a seperate passport.

some freedom loving retards in here...

freedom as in ben franklin...not george bush...

bitWISE wrote:

Dave wrote:

bitWISE wrote:So ID cards are bad because?

I don't want the government tracking me--that's what credit cards are for
I already have ID in the form of a drivers license
I don't want to live in a culture where I have to "present my papers"
I don't want private business to have access to my information
The security of the technology is weak, according to that article. Anyone with an RFID reader can nab your personal code over their air with little difficulty.
You no longer own your identity... According the article, the UK government (and ours as well, I'm sure) will be able to revoke your card with a half baked excuse

1) I don't really want that either. That is the only real problem I have with a super ID card. I really don't care if people know what I do but I could see it being abused.
2) So what's the difference if we had a single, nationwide driver's license?
3) You already have to if you buy cigarettes/alcohol/porn
4) They shouldn't have free access to the info. From what I gathered in that article it was being used a replacement for filling out forms with the same personal information. If you use any "shopper's cards" the store already has a profile of your personal habits.
5) I agree that RFID is a bad idea atm but credit card style or smart card style would be ok.
6) Yeah, you shouldn't be able to lose your ID unless you are being deported.

I think that given the right implementation, ID cards are a good idea.

Let me guess, you supported and continue to support the Patriot Act because you think it will never affect you or your friends. You can add ID cards to the long list of things like the Patriot Act, the TVA, the 1917 Espionage Act, etc that gave government extra-Constiutional authority in times of crisis when people were afraid. It's not something politicians like to admit, but Control is a central tenet of modern government. Government looks for any excuse to insert its authority wherever and whenever it smells fear in the population.

Drivers licenses are controlled by the individual states, not collected in a centralized nationwide database. As far as I know, the state is pretty open to meeting official national requests for information, so why do we need another system? Will my national ID replace my drivers license? I highly doubt that considering most driving laws are decided at the state level, not the national level. States will not to give up control of intrastate transportation rules to national authority. Now I'm going to have to keep track of two different ID cards.

I don't think you understand the concept of presenting your papers... This is not Nazi Germany or whatever else you can think of. I don't want to have to show ID to prove my identity. You start giving people ID cards and people in authority are going to want to see it and verify it. I have a social security card for access to social services and a birth certificate to show where and when I was born. I don't need anything else. I registered with the Selective Service when I turned 18, but that's another issue all together.

No "free access" to info, eh? Paid access then? Access to the highest bidder? A lot of shady people can afford that... How about "no access."

"If you use any "shopper's cards" the store already has a profile of your personal habits." So basically, if they have my info because I gave it to them independent of the ID card system, they're entitled to read it out of a central official DB, which would contain considerably more info about myself than I gave the grocery store, to save me time? I don't think so.

On your last point, consider the fact that citizenship is now based on your possession of an ID card... If the government revokes your card and deports your or not, you've lost your citizenship. Ben Franklin didn't need an ID card.

well said :icon14:

ID cards are a solution in search of a problem, hence the ever-changing justifications for introducing them

incidentally, a relevant fact that may not be widely known: in order to continue to qualify for visa-free entry to the US, countries with current visa-free arrangements with the US (like the UK) must adopt biometric passports or its citizens will be forced to get a visa from the US embassy before travelling to america...