Quake3World

Fucking dickheads running this country.
http://www.watchingamerica.com/sonntags ... 0001.shtml

I was almost surprised that Condi didn't admit as much a few months back when the story first hit the news - truth has a nasty habit of surfacing after you bury it, and this particular piece of news is quite damaging for certain people.

I hope the cowardly EU does something about it this time.

Christ, it's getting hard to follow the scandals that surround the Bush administration, there's so many...

I wonder if it's a planned strategy, like they figured 'Hey we got Clinton on that one thing - what we need to do is divide everyones attention by creating fourty terribly serious scandals all at once, then we'll probably get away with everything'.

Most of them are connected - i.e. all part of the same big-ass scandal.

True that.

Ryoki wrote:I was almost surprised that Condi didn't admit as much a few months back when the story first hit the news - truth has a nasty habit of surfacing after you bury it, and this particular piece of news is quite damaging for certain people.

I hope the cowardly EU does something about it this time.

Condi does what she's told, that's why she got the job she has.

Honestly, I really hope the EU does something about it too.

The thing is that EU countries have most likely known about secret CIA flights for years, putting them in an akward position. Do something about it and it's an admission of guilt and heads will have to roll, do nothing and you lose credibility.

I just hope they have the balls to do the sensible thing.

R00k wrote: Condi does what she's told, that's why she got the job she has.

Oh...yeah. What i meant by that was that sometimes admitting something is less damaging then denying it and having it come back at you. Creates the impression that it wasn't a mistake, but official policy... Since imo there was no way this story was gonna get buried - it's far too outrageous for that - i think denying it out of hand was just bad strateregy (TM).

I hope the story gets picked up again by the main stream press, should be fun

Of course it's bad strategy to openly lie about things that are eventually going to come out anyway.

But this is Karl, Dick and George we're talking about here.

haha yes

So, in other words, the US is running secret prisons in foregin territory.. Why are the foreigners not doing anything to stop us? Obvious answer, so why doesn't this article blast the "host nation" for allowing/backing down? It's easy to paint the USA as Satan, but no one ever seems to notice the other players in any given game.. unless it's Britain

Are they claiming the prisons are "torture" prisons, or are they going after the fact that either Condi Rice is either obviously uninformed or is lying? I dont see how they're drawing conclusion to these prisons being places of torture, but I think its quite obvious the US administration is doing things that they are denouncing publically.

so, another bunch of governments whose foreign policy is far to the right of public opinion...

This doesn't surprise me in the least. The countries listed in that article have only just shed of their communist way of doing things, so I guess they, in exchange for some aid dollars and trade contracts, won't hesitate to turn a blind eye to things like this.

Dave wrote:So, in other words, the US is running secret prisons in foregin territory.. Why are the foreigners not doing anything to stop us? Obvious answer, so why doesn't this article blast the "host nation" for allowing/backing down? It's easy to paint the USA as Satan, but no one ever seems to notice the other players in any given game.. unless it's Britain

probably because understanding the actions of poland or romania or any other of those countries listed is impossible without explaining the motives and influence of the US, whilst understanding what the US is about doesn't require any mention of polish or ukrainian foreign policy

Or because it's no surprise that Poland or Romania are doing such things?

The fact that we're doing things that normally only countries like Poland and Romania (and dictatorships and 3rd world countries) would be caught doing is half the point.

And if you're really curious as to why they are allowing us to do it, I'm sure we either gave them a lot of money, or pressured them politically somehow to allow it; although I would also like to know the details.

I think these are just excuses.

What do you mean?

Sure there should be international pressure on these countries to stop allowing the US to do this. But it sounds like you're implying it's better to go after the enablers or accessories to a crime than to punish the principal offending party.

Poland and Romania should get their share of the recriminations too - but to me that hardly seems like more than a diversion from the fact that my own country is the one organizing all this.

So basically what you all are saying is that oppressive foreign governments should be able to do as they please in their own countries as long as it doesn't affect you and ignored for their atrocities in the press because that's just how they roll? "Oh, well so-and-so used to be communist, so that's just how they do things." Unfair and rediculous. Everyone enabling/perpretrating a crime should be equally held responsible--that's how our justice system is supposed to work. Aiding and abetting ring a bell? If some serial killer murders a bunch of people and his mother gives him a ride to the scene knowing full well that her son is about to commit a crime, who should go to jail? If you read the paper the next day and find no mention of his mother driving him to the murder scene, do you feel like you've missed part of the story? I sure do.

Dave wrote:So basically what you all are saying is that oppressive foreign governments should be able to do as they please in their own countries as long as it doesn't affect you and ignored for their atrocities in the press because that's just how they roll? "Oh, well so-and-so used to be communist, so that's just how they do things." Unfair and rediculous.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And what you're saying is our country should not have to change its policies at all if noone can make Poland and Romania change theirs.
Exaggeration and putting words in people's mouths can go both ways.

R00k wrote:there should be international pressure on these countries to stop allowing the US to do this.

Poland and Romania should get their share of the recriminations too

Dave wrote:Everyone enabling/perpretrating a crime should be equally held responsible--that's how our justice system is supposed to work. Aiding and abetting ring a bell? If some serial killer murders a bunch of people and his mother gives him a ride to the scene knowing full well that her son is about to commit a crime, who should go to jail? If you read the paper the next day and find no mention of his mother driving him to the murder scene, do you feel like you've missed part of the story? I sure do.

R00k wrote:I would also like to know the details.

Of course they are aiding and abetting, and of course I think they should be held accountable for it.

But I'm the type of person who likes to be responsible for my own actions and take care of my own problems before I have time to worry about everybody else's in the world.

Does a good person travel around smoking crack, while calling for everyone to hold his dealers accountable?

WTF? So, the egyptians think there might be US prisons in romania? Well, that proves it then

Dave wrote:So basically what you all are saying is that oppressive foreign governments should be able to do as they please in their own countries as long as it doesn't affect you and ignored for their atrocities in the press because that's just how they roll? "Oh, well so-and-so used to be communist, so that's just how they do things." Unfair and rediculous. Everyone enabling/perpretrating a crime should be equally held responsible--that's how our justice system is supposed to work. Aiding and abetting ring a bell? If some serial killer murders a bunch of people and his mother gives him a ride to the scene knowing full well that her son is about to commit a crime, who should go to jail? If you read the paper the next day and find no mention of his mother driving him to the murder scene, do you feel like you've missed part of the story? I sure do.

i didn't say that. in fact your story about the mother and serial killer just illustrates my point: the explanation of *her* behaviour only makes sense by reference to *his*. the reverse is *not* the case. since a part of journalism is (or ought to be, if it's good journalism) explaining *why* things are happening (not just providing a bland description of events), it makes sense for coverage of secret torture centres to focus on the US more than on the countries providing the facilities, because these centres only exist because of a US policy (namely the 'anything goes' post-9/11 policy)

btw you are right to say no mention of the mother driving sonny boy to the murder scene would leave out something. however as the linked story clearly shows, the role of poland, romania etc is *not* left out of the story. it's right there in black and white

lastly, regards responsibility: is it the beginning and end of media coverage to do nothing more than ascribe blame for crimes? no - while this part of what journalism ought to do, explaining why these crimes occurred is also major part. (see again my first point ...)