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Can this messageboard

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:36 pm
by Foo
support a discussion as sensitive as this:
The reason why Whites and East Asians have wider hips than Blacks, and so make poorer runners
is because they give birth to larger brained babies. During evolution, increasing cranial size meant women
had to have a wider pelvis. Further, the hormones that give Blacks an edge at sports makes them restless
in school and prone to crime.

---

On average, Orientals are slower to mature, less fertile, and less sexually active, have larger
brains and higher IQ scores. Blacks are at the opposite end in each of these areas. Whites fall in the
middle, often close to Orientals. The evidence shows that this is due to both genes and environment.

---

Hundreds of studies on millions of people show a threeway
pattern. IQ tests are often made to have an average score of 100, with a “normal” range from 85 to
115. Whites average from 100 to 103. Orientals in Asia and the U.S. tend to have higher scores, about
106, even though IQ tests were made for use in the Euro-American culture. Blacks in the U.S., the
Caribbean, Britain, Canada, and in Africa average lower IQs -- about 85. The lowest average IQs are
found for sub-Saharan Africans -- from 70 to 75.

---

In the U.S., Blacks are less than 13% of the population but have 50% of all arrests for assault and
murder and 67% of all arrests for robbery. Fifty percent of all crime victims also report their assailants are
Black, so the arrest statistics cannot be due to police bias.

--

Blacks score higher on verbal tests than they do on nonverbal tests, and they do better on tests of
school knowledge than they do on tests of reasoning ability. From grades 1 to 12, Blacks fall just as far
below Whites in school work as they do on IQ tests. Blacks score below even more disadvantaged groups,
such as American Indians. Again, this is not what culture theory predicts.

---

Can heritability tell us anything about the differences between races? Yes, a lot! Studies show that
when the heritability is high in Whites, it is also high in Orientals and Blacks. When it is low in Whites, it
is also low in Orientals and Blacks. For example, the heritability of IQ is about 50% for Blacks, Orientals,
and other groups, just as it is for Whites. So there is a genetic basis for intelligence in all three races.

---

The evidence for genetic theory got stronger as the children grew older. By age 17, the IQs of the
adopted children moved closer to the expected average for their race. At age 17 adopted White children
31
had an IQ of about 106, Mixed-Race adoptees an IQ of about 99, and adopted Blacks had an IQ of about
89. IQ scores are not the only evidence in this study. School grades, class ranks, and aptitude tests show
the same pattern.

---

Race, Evolution and Behaviour: A Life History Perspective
by Professor Philippe J. Rushton

http//www.amazon.com/...
My ding-a-ling-o-meter says no.

So. Asian people = inherently more intelligent that white people = inherently more intelligent than black people?

If you subscribe to the theory of evolution, I don't see how you can deny that race can determine average intelligence.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:38 pm
by Foo
Course the big question is whether he invented all those stats.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:43 pm
by mrd
Doesn't seem to far fetched to me. But yeah.. sources would be good. Anyone can make up numbers heh.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:45 pm
by Jackal
lol Dr. Rushton, the biggest laughing stock of the academic community.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:45 pm
by Guest
I know for a fact that a local university here, McGill I think, made a study about race vs intelligence and it was shut down by government authorities.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:46 pm
by Geebs
That's pretty much it. If you're going to publish that, You need to give some reputable studies; you'd also need to control for income.

Anyway, as any fule kno, individual variation is much greater than racial variation.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:48 pm
by Jackal
He has absolutely no sources. His scientific method involved him going around a university cafeteria and measuring people's heads. Some of his research was also funded by racist organizations. He's actually used as the example of how not to do scientific research.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:48 pm
by Jackal
Geebs wrote:That's pretty much it. If you're going to publish that, You need to give some reputable studies; you'd also need to control for income.

Anyway, as any fule kno, individual variation is much greater than racial variation.
exactly

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:48 pm
by Guest
I think it's mainly a culture thing, basicly another version of keeping up with the jones.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:49 pm
by Foo
Jackal wrote:lol Dr. Rushton, the biggest laughing stock of the academic community.
Rushton is indeed a kook, along similar lines as Jack Thompson and Uwe Boll.

The underlying debate still has merit although the gas cloud and stigma surrounding the whole thing is pitiful.... on both sides.

If we are to believe:
1. That we evolved from apes
2. Apes are of lesser intelligence than us
3. Evolution is not a predetermined linear and singular path

then the merit of a debate on racial intellect variation ought to be given due consideration.

On the flip-side, should it matter? After all, the education system *should* filter individuals more accurately than simple blanket generalisation.

My inferior white brain hurts just thinking about it.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:49 pm
by Jackal
There's a great debate you can watch somewhere online between Rushton and Suzuki. You can actually see how much of a moron the guy is.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:54 pm
by Geebs
Kracus wrote:I think it's mainly a culture thing, basicly another version of keeping up with the jones.
I love the way everyone else in the thread apart from Kracus knows that this guy's research has been discredited. Keep trucking, guy!

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:01 pm
by Guest
I'm not talking about his research, I'm saying it's local culture. There's no way to really test it because each individual is different but I bet if you took a thousand white people and put them in a ghetto and raised them from birth there they'd probably be as dumb as any black person or asian person raised there with the odd exception now and then. Why do you think the bible belt is full of fucking retards?

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:13 pm
by Geebs
Fuck me, Kracus discovers the nature/nurture debate. Pity that this:
There's no way to really test it because each individual is different
would imply that you haven't figured out how to conduct scientific research....

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:24 pm
by menkent
Foo wrote:If we are to believe:
1. That we evolved from apes
2. Apes are of lesser intelligence than us
3. Evolution is not a predetermined linear and singular path
1. wrong, apes and humans evolved from common anscestors a loooong way back.
2. apples and oranges. they could just be smart in different areas than us- like we're good with languages and they're good at interpreting smells.
3. how does this relate to the previous two?

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:27 pm
by plained
the hip width is not a good gauge of how easy a baby pops out.

its the inner diameter that matters and its not dependant of the outter size

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:34 pm
by Foo
plained wrote:the hip width is not a good gauge of how easy a baby pops out.

its the inner diameter that matters and its not dependant of the outter size
:icon14:

Even irrespective of that, I'm stereotyping to a large degree but my perception of asian women is of having far narrower hips in general than those of african descent.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:37 pm
by Massive Quasars
While that article was bullshit, there seems to be some evidence to suggest that Ashkenazi Jews are on average more intelligent than the rest of us.

http://www.economist.com/science/displa ... id=4032638
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http: ... 5DQ7E,BCeb
http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public ... socsci.pdf

ps: Don't go off on my ass for suggesting this, read and rationally critique yourself. I don't speak definitively here.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:40 pm
by Geebs
Size of adam's apple is not an indicator of intelligence...

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:42 pm
by mrd
Geebs wrote:Size of adam's apple is not an indicator of intelligence...
I think I may have to kill you merely based on your sig. pic.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:47 pm
by Massive Quasars
From the economist link:
But the thesis also has a strong point: it makes a clear and testable prediction. This is that people with a single copy of the gene for Tay-Sachs, or that for Gaucher's, or that for Niemann-Pick should be more intelligent than average. Dr Cochran and his colleagues predict they will be so by about five IQ points. If that turns out to be the case, it will strengthen the idea that, albeit unwillingly, Ashkenazi Jews have been part of an accidental experiment in eugenics.
Testable predictions, always good to see.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:04 pm
by [xeno]Julios
few points that come to mind:

*hard to separate out nature from nurture, not to mention the complex interactions.

*but yes, no reason why different genetic groups might not differ systematically along dimensions of phenotype, including neurological ones which have an effect on perception and cognition. Afterall, they differ along phenotypes which are visually discriminable, such as skin colour.

*I'm not sure that skin colour is a good standard for correlating any such clusters of genotypes. From what I understand, there are blacks in some tribes in africa who don't even closely resemble north american blacks (see next point). Their morphological features are very different. So an african american may actually resemble a white american more than she resembles a black african from a different part of africa.

*much of this research, from what little i understand, is done on north american blacks, so it's hardly representative of blacks in general. North american blacks were selected from west africa based on their ability to become good slaves. Then there's the whole issue about how only the physically strong survived the boat rides. Not sure about these details though - much of it is my own speculations.

*much social psychological research shows that the stereotypes can have incredibly significant effects on aptitude testing (this would be one element from the dimension of nurture).

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:07 pm
by [xeno]Julios
Jackal wrote:There's a great debate you can watch somewhere online between Rushton and Suzuki. You can actually see how much of a moron the guy is.
nice - found an excerpt:

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-75-663-372 ... zuki/clip5

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:10 pm
by Geebs
Massive Quasars wrote:From the economist link:
But the thesis also has a strong point: it makes a clear and testable prediction. This is that people with a single copy of the gene for Tay-Sachs, or that for Gaucher's, or that for Niemann-Pick should be more intelligent than average. Dr Cochran and his colleagues predict they will be so by about five IQ points. If that turns out to be the case, it will strengthen the idea that, albeit unwillingly, Ashkenazi Jews have been part of an accidental experiment in eugenics.
Testable predictions, always good to see.
ffs, if you wanted to prove a 5 iq point discrepancy, you'd need a larger population of people than there actually are ashkenazi jews. Coming up with a null hypothesis is, in the context of research, the absolute furthest you can get away from actual proof.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:11 pm
by [xeno]Julios
course, the real issue here is whether scientists should be able to explore these matters.

pharmacogenetics is one area that is already contentious (developing drugs for different genetic groups).

I haven't thought about this issue long enough - perhaps we can't handle the truth.

But we should face up to the following question:

if whites are shown to be less intelligent than orientals, does that mean we should change the way we function in society?