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jews and math...

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:18 pm
by Freakaloin
hmm...seems they like to play the dead by numbers card on us...homo alert???...

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/08/156377.php

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:47 pm
by seremtan
Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the German concentration camp system (from all causes).
:confused:

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:50 pm
by R00k
I thought it was supposed to be like 6 million dead or something?

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:53 pm
by Freakaloin
in one camp? uh no...

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:02 pm
by losCHUNK
think he was on about the overall amount of deaths

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:08 pm
by seremtan
yes, hence the words "german concentration camp system" rather than "auschwitz"

geoff you're having another slow-brainer

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:14 pm
by Mr.Magnetichead
100 or 100,000,000,000 it doesn't matter.

Those people were killed in the worst ways imaginable.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:20 pm
by losCHUNK
not the point

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:48 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
what a manipulative and manipulated piece of garbage. more proof that geoff can't tell shit from shinola.

if you want to read on how many died, start here maybe

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/au ... aq-09.html


geoff you're a fucking idiot


if you want to make a big deal out of the fact that there are different estimates for the deaths, you might want to consider the difficulty in ascertaining such things (uh see recently revised figures for the dead in the genocide in the Balkins or virtually any other similar event in history as well)

or maybe we should blame the Jews :tard:

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:56 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:05 pm
by Freakaloin
any moron knows that the number of dead jews by nazis was over reporter for jew sympathy for decades...thats a fact...even jews know it...so don't be a moron...

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:06 pm
by Freakaloin
and theres a big difference in hundreds as opposed to millions...one would be a massacre..the other is genocide...duh..moron alert???...

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:18 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
Freakaloin wrote:and theres a big difference in hundreds as opposed to millions...one would be a massacre..the other is genocide...duh..moron alert???...
okay so according to the great scholars you're citing here how many Jews died under the Nazi's and how many in gas chambers? According to you geoff, how many died?

My understanding since childhood is that 6 million jews were killed by Hitler.

I've seen nothing credible to suggest that the number I've cited above is way off.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:20 pm
by Freakaloin
i think the number is closer to 1-2 million...but most died from typhoid...soviets died more...

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:21 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
The following extermination camps existed:


Kulmhof i.e. Chelmno (in the then Wartheland), where between December
1941 and fall 1942 and again from May until August 1944 gassings by
means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas took place. Altogether
more than 150,000 Jews as well as 5000 gypsies have hereby been killed.


Belzec (in the district Lublin of the then general governments): from
march to December 1942 in the beginning in three, later in six large gas
chambers by means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas altogether
about 600,000 Jews were killed here.


Sobibor (district Lublin, general government) received in April 1942
three, later in September 1942 six gas chambers and until October 1943
it was "in operation". During this period at least 200,000 Jews have
been murdered through carbon monoxide gas.


Treblinka (district Warschau, general government) from the end of July
1942 on had three gas chambers and received at the start of September 1942
furthermore ten larger gas chambers. Up to the dissolution of the camp in
November 1943 altogether 700,000 Jews were killed here by carbon monoxide.


Majdanek (district Lublin, general government): The concentration camp
existing since September 1941 turned into an extermination camp when between
April 1942 and November 1943 mass shootings took place to which 24,000 Jews
fell victim. In October 1942 also two, later three gas chambers were built.
In the beginning the killings in these were done by means of carbon monoxide, soon however one was using Zyklon B (a highly poisonous insecticide made
from cyan hydrogen). Up until the dissolution of the camp in March 1944
about 50,000 Jews have been gassed.


Auschwitz-Birkenau (in the formerly polish, in 1939 adjoined to the "Reich"
upper eastern Silesian area, south eastern of Kattowitz): The extermination
camp in Birkenau, established in the second half of 1941, was joined to
the concentration camp Auschwitz, existing since May 1940. From January
1942 on in five gas chambers and from the end of June 1943 in four
additional large gassing-rooms gassings with Zyklon B have been
undertaken. Up until November 1944 more than one million Jews and at least
4000 gypsies have been murdered by gas.


In the following concentration camps gas chambers were established and have
gone into operation:


Mauthausen (upper Austria): From fall 1941 on one gas chamber existed which
was operated with Zyklon B. In addition, gassings with carbon monoxide took
place through gas vans which were driven between Mauthausen and it's
side-camp Gusen. Altogether more than 4000 have been killed here through gas.

Neuengamme (southeastern of Hamburg): From fall of 1942 on gassings with
Zyklon B were undertaken here in a "Bunker" prepared for that, about 450
victims.

Sachsenhausen (Province Brandenburg, north of Berlin) received mid March
1943 a gas chamber which was operated with Zyklon B. Several thousand
people fell victim to the gassings, a more specific number cannot be
determined.

Natzweiler (by Struthof, Elsass): From August 1943 to August 1944 a gas
chamber existed here in which between 120 and 200 people were killed through
Zyklon B in order to be able to dissect their skeletons for the Anatomica
Institute of University of Strassburg. Back then this institute was managed
by a chief company commander of SS Prof. Dr. August Hirt.

Stutthof (east of Danzig) had from June 1944 on one gas chamber in which
more than 1000 were killed by Zyklon B.

Ravensbruck (Bradenburg, north of Berlin): Here still in January
1945 a gas chamber was established; the number of the people killed
in it was at least 2300.

Dachau (Upper Bavaria, northeast of Munich): During the establishment of
a new house of cremation in 1942 also a gas chamber was established in it
in which in connection with the medical experiments of the chief company
commander of SS Dr. Rascher also a few experimental gassings were undertaken,
as more recent research has confirmed. (On that see Gunther Kimmel:
The Concentration Camp Dachau. A study of the Nazi crimes of violence in
Bavaria in the NS-time II, edited by Martin Broszat and Elke Froehlich,
Munich, R. Oldenburg Press, 1979, P. 391.) Larger gassing operations
have not taken place in Dachau.


The above mentioned numbers of the people killed in the gas chambers of
the individual camps are only approximations. They also only refer to the
people killed in gassing operations. The number of the Jews killed in
Europe due to the effects of the Nazi tyranny amounts, according to the
newest research to at least 5.29 million. Possibly, however, also more than six million.

The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:44 pm
by tnf
goof is a nazi sympathizer.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:46 pm
by [xeno]Julios
I'm pretty ignornat on this issue - someday i'll get round to reading finkelstein's take on it.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:50 pm
by chopov
Anyone has reliable numbers about how many (Jews/others)were killed in Russia under Stalin (Gulag etc.)? I believe it won't differ much from the count in III. Reich, maybe even more.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:51 pm
by tnf
chopov wrote:Anyone has reliable numbers about how many (Jews/others)were killed in Russia under Stalin (Gulag etc.)? I believe it won't differ much from the count in III. Reich, maybe even more.
everyone knows it was only about 10.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:57 pm
by chopov
If you mean 10 millions then I can follow you...

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:58 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
Freakaloin wrote:i think the number is closer to 1-2 million...but most died from typhoid...soviets died more...
okay well let's see a source. where did you get that number?

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:00 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
20 million people (not Jews) under stalin

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:03 pm
by tnf
chopov wrote:If you mean 10 millions then I can follow you...
no no...everyone knows it was only 10 people...it's all media hype. i read it on the internet.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:16 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocau ... faq_3.html

How many Jews were murdered in the Holocaust? How do we know? Do we have their names?


There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The figure commonly used is the six million quoted by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (Professor Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59–5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29 million to six million.

The main sources for these statistics are comparisons of prewar censuses with postwar censuses and population estimates. Nazi documentation containing partial data on various deportations and murders is also used. We estimate that Yad Vashem currently has somewhat more than four million names of victims that are accessible. This figure is based primarily on some two million Pages of Testimony, which often contain information about more than one Jew who perished in the Holocaust. As of early June 1999, more than 1.6 million Pages of Testimony have been computerized. In addition, we have thousands of documents containing names from the Holocaust era, many of which are those of victims. This body of documentation has yet to be fully researched and added to our computerized database. Eventually we hope, through our computerization project, to provide as much information as possible about each victim.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:23 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
http://www1.ushmm.org/research/library/ ... question02

How many Jews were killed during the Holocaust?



The estimated number of Jewish fatalities during the Holocaust is usually given as between 5.1 and 6 million victims. However, despite the availability of numerous scholarly works and archival sources on the subject, Holocaust-related figures might never be definitively known. Furthermore, it is important to keep in mind that the available Holocaust statistics include a wide margin of error because:

* Not all victims of the Holocaust were registered.
* Countless records that did exist were destroyed by the Nazis, or lost, burned, or damaged in military actions.
* Records often contain fragmentary information, failing to include, for example, the victim's ethnic, national, or religious affiliation.

In addition, one should critically examine any statistics presented because:

* Different scholars have used different base dates for computing their figures, a situation that results in statistical differences due to the changing national borders of the Holocaust period.
* Figures for victims of a given country usually include not only citizens but also resident aliens and stateless refugees.
* Scholars have sometimes wrongly equated data about the arrests of various victims with fatalities, particularly in the case of non-Jewish victims.

What follows are two different estimates of Jewish deaths by country and the sources from which those statistics are drawn. Please note that these are just a sampling of the published Holocaust-related statistics. Additional sources for estimates of Jewish deaths are provided following these two examples:

Country Number
Poland up to 3,000,000
USSR over 700,000
Romania 270,000
Czechoslovakia 260,000
Hungary over 180,000
Germany 130,000
Lithuania up to 130,000
Netherlands over 100,000
France 75,000
Latvia 70,000
Yugoslavia 60,000
Greece 60,000
Austria over 50,000
Belgium 24,000
Italy (including Rhodes) 9,000
Estonia over 1,000
Norway under 1,000
Luxembourg under 1,000
Danzig under 1,000
Total 5,100,000
Source: Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, 3rd ed. (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2003), Vol. 3, p. 1321.

Country Minimum Loss Maximum Loss
Austria 50,000 50,000
Belgium 28,900 28,900
Bohemia and Moravia 78,150 78,150
Bulgaria 0 0
Denmark 60 60
Estonia 1,500 2,000
Finland 7 7
France 77,320 77,320
Germany 134,500 141,500
Greece 60,000 67,000
Hungary 550,000 569,000
Italy 7,680 7,680
Latvia 70,000 71,500
Lithuania 140,000 143,000
Luxembourg 1,950 1,950
Netherlands 100,000 100,000
Norway 762 762
Poland 2,900,000 3,000,000
Romania 271,000 287,000
Slovakia 68,000 71,000
Soviet Union 1,000,000 1,100,000
Yugoslavia 56,200 63,300
Source: Yehuda Bauer, and Robert Rozett, "Estimated Jewish Losses in the Holocaust," in Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (New York: Macmillan, 1990), p.1799. See this source for a full explanation of these statistics.

For additional Holocaust statistics, see:

* Benz, Wolfgang, editor. Dimension des Volkermords: Die Zahl der judischen Opfer des Nationalsozialismus. Munich: Oldenbourg, 1991.
* Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1984.
* Lestchinsky, Jacob. Crisis, Catastrophe, and Survival: A Jewish Balance Sheet, 1941-1948. New York: Institute of Jewish Affairs of the World Jewish Congress, 1948.
* Levin, Nora. The Holocaust: The Destruction of European Jewry, 1933-1945. New York: Schocken, 1973
* Reitlinger, Gerald. The Final Solution, the Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe, 1939-1945. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1987

Jules, fwiw Finklestein thinks Raul Hillberg is the definitive scholar on the Holocaust. (this gleaned from reading and from his lecture)