Quake3World

No offense, but you really are shockingly naive if you expected (or even hoped for) anything else.

For YEARS now, the standard path for gameplay has been "empower newbs by raping the skillset". One of the easiest ways to do that (ie "what requires the least possible amount of thought or design?") is by making weapons, which are readily available to "losers", uberpowerful; and correspondingly making H/A, which are really only available to winners/survivors/etc weak and/or in minimal supply.

The DESIRE, and it's important to understand that this IS "desired behavior" just as much as it is incompetence and laziness, is that mediocre players should get to kill Thresh, because the Threshes are in a war of attrition that they can't possibly win. (Think of it as a map having 100 "defensive" units worth of items per time period, and 800 "offensive" units). The better team still wins eventually, but in the meantime Little Johnny gets to feel like a hero because he killed a few people.

Different people want different things out of their MP play. What RAVEN want is lots of happy Little Johnnys telling their friends how great the game is, because there are a lot more of them than there are Threshes. If what YOU want is a CTF game that rewards skill and teamplay more than just constantly respawning and charging at FCs over and over again, then I guess it's time for Loki IV because you can be damn sure you won't get "skill-focused" gameplay from Raven.

oh yeh arQon bitching about gameplay like he's the god of gameplay among mortals. Classic times.

He does have a point, although because the hardcore player base is such a small percentile of the total it doesn't make any business sense at all to cater to their needs in a commersial product.

I sort of memorized the health spawns. My deaths are usually around 1/4th my frags. Been playing mostly CTF, just played a few TDM games with grandpa stu. good times.

Grudge wrote:He does have a point, although because the hardcore player base is such a small percentile of the total it doesn't make any business sense at all to cater to their needs in a commersial product.

He has a point yes when it comes to competitive play and what this incredibly small and minute part of the community, calling themselves "promode players" want.

Promode players also have the tendency to belittle everything that's not according to their views. Raven is dumb for catering to the mass market. They're dumb for creating gameplay that's enjoyable for almost everyone rather than just a few. Raven doesn't know what real gameplay is.

Raven hit the nail on the head. If they create gameplay that is enjoyable by most then they've succeeded in creating a solid and enjoyable game experience. If the majority of this world is hooked on the gameplay, no matter how much it caters to so-called "noobs", then Raven did the right thing. For 99% of the entire gaming cummunity, gaming isn't about being competitive and having to build up a skill level, it's about enjoying the experience. That's why CS is far more succesful than Quake.

If those "pro" players want gameplay tailored specifically for themselves, then they should go ahead and create a mod. I commend arQon for picking up the torch and doing so for Quake 3 with CPMA. But please don't try to force this sort of gameplay down upon the rest of the community. Don't belittle the majority of the community for not recognizing pro-gameplay as "the one and only" gameplay.

I think Raven have put alot of work into movement and its paid off.

The movement is designed to be noob friendly, its gone in the opposite direction to CPMA in general. Though strafing is still there, ramp jumps are now in and the pace feels good. Also it feels more natural and realistic.

Its a noob friendly game which is good for advanced players also, a sure winner!

I'm curious... what CTF maps are available in Q4? I saw the one from the video on esreality, which looks new. Any remakes from Q3?

mjrpes wrote:I'm curious... what CTF maps are available in Q4? I saw the one from the video on esreality, which looks new. Any remakes from Q3?

I think there's a CTF version of q3tourney6 but that's it AFAIK.

Damn... the one Q3 CTF map I was never a fan of

stronghold was the bomb

MKJ wrote:stronghold was the bomb

you mean stronghold opposition (q2ctf2 I think it was)? That was an ace map... and a nice Q3 conversion of it can be found here http://www.planetquake.com/eoc/maps/q3s ... ndex.shtml (shameless pimp)

Eraser wrote:oh yeh arQon bitching about gameplay like he's the god of gameplay among mortals. Classic times.

The bitching comes with the critical attitude required to write great game code.

I think those ''l33t cpma players'' shit too much about gameplay....they are never satisified. Go away....

You first.

OSP is wonderful.

pF.arQon wrote:No offense, but you really are shockingly naive if you expected (or even hoped for) anything else.

For YEARS now, the standard path for gameplay has been "empower newbs by raping the skillset". One of the easiest ways to do that (ie "what requires the least possible amount of thought or design?") is by making weapons, which are readily available to "losers", uberpowerful; and correspondingly making H/A, which are really only available to winners/survivors/etc weak and/or in minimal supply.

The DESIRE, and it's important to understand that this IS "desired behavior" just as much as it is incompetence and laziness, is that mediocre players should get to kill Thresh, because the Threshes are in a war of attrition that they can't possibly win. (Think of it as a map having 100 "defensive" units worth of items per time period, and 800 "offensive" units). The better team still wins eventually, but in the meantime Little Johnny gets to feel like a hero because he killed a few people.

Different people want different things out of their MP play. What RAVEN want is lots of happy Little Johnnys telling their friends how great the game is, because there are a lot more of them than there are Threshes. If what YOU want is a CTF game that rewards skill and teamplay more than just constantly respawning and charging at FCs over and over again, then I guess it's time for Loki IV because you can be damn sure you won't get "skill-focused" gameplay from Raven.

thx for killing osp

dzjepp wrote:thx for killing osp

hrmm, missed this. notice the web site is gone. got any links?

blakjack wrote:

dzjepp wrote:thx for killing osp

hrmm, missed this. notice the web site is gone. got any links?

Rhea asked arQon to take over OSP maintenance and give it an update, but he declined for obvious reasons (not wanting to run two projects at the same time, not being able to implement accurate netcode and physics without half the OSP community whining, etc.).

I haven't found it at all, quite the opposite, once you get the movement right you can avoid alsorts, plus it feels easier to kill if anything!

So OSP is no more and there won't be one for Q4?

cpma WAS osp...with better physics.

stop trolling

i wasnt? cpma was basically the osp hud/ranking/ui with better physics. i cant help it if you cant see that.

OSP was more than just the physics of CPMA. It had its own gametypes, most importantly the CTF games. Plus it had Clan Arena that you could play without the CPMA spaceman physics.

you just reitorated what i said...except the ctf gametypes. only reason i missed those was because i dont tend to play ctf.