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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:59 am
by plained
i doen know what any religeons mean at all and i neverv been to a church ceremony
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:04 am
by seremtan
Iccy (temp) wrote:Well thats a cute, but you dont have 95% of the planet telling you that while it might not be a swahili elephant for sure, there is definetly a elphant of some kind in the room. The athiest is claiming that the majority is wrong, so even by your own account, they are required to prove facts as much as the opposing idea. By all accounts the athiest would be the "hypothetical crazy person" would they not?
this sounds like a variation on the "50 zillion people can't be wrong" argument. i don't suppose it would do me much good to point out the endless list of things the majority have believed throughout history that turned out to be wrong because a small number of people (sometimes only one person) discovered the truth
But im with you in a way on religion. I can see how it can be invented to help us not feel alone, a defence response.
i didn't say that religion was a defence mechanism. i said that the argument you originally made was a defence mechanism, the argument about the burden of proof resting on the unbeliever
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:32 am
by Dek
Here's how to stack a deck for a false argument. Collect unrelated statistics and pass them off as proving causation. A decline in steel production may be an item of interest, but it doesn't have anything to do with a rise in asparagus eating among retirees.
Keep that in mind as you read Ruth Gledhill's column in Tuesday's edition of The Times [London]. Gledhill, the paper's religion correspondent, reported: Religious belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.
The research study she cites, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, compared more secular societies like England and Japan with nations like the United States, where a larger percentage of the population is comprised of active Christians. The report supposedly shows high levels of social pathologies in the more Christian nations. Of course, this proves nothing, since an almost limitless number of unrelated factors could explain the differences claimed by the study.
This didn't stop researcher Gregory Paul from claiming far more. "The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted," he said. Not so fast, Mr. Paul.
He did make one very interesting observation, linking Christian belief to a rejection of evolutionary theory. According to Gledhill's report: He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said. That's something to think about.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:00 pm
by Guest
And exactly where did you get that quote dek?
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:06 pm
by Guest
ps: I can block images now.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:11 pm
by Dek
Kracus wrote:And exactly where did you get that quote dek?
Does it matter? Some theologian's website; I agree with most of it the logic is flawed in his causation of America's woes, he doesn't prove how christianity is the cause of anything, you could come up with the same argument about fast food causes more abortions, etc..
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:41 pm
by Guest
Dek wrote:Kracus wrote:And exactly where did you get that quote dek?
Does it matter? Some theologian's website; I agree with most of it the logic is flawed in his causation of America's woes, he doesn't prove how christianity is the cause of anything, you could come up with the same argument about fast food causes more abortions, etc..
Yes it does matter. It's blatantly obvious religion is a plague on this earth. One look at the middle east should tell you that and now with the fucking mother of all bible thumping maniacs in power in the us. Sure he's a criminal and an idiot but as long as he pretends to place god in front of everything he's golden. Religion is a very real and very bad problem.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:46 pm
by Dek
Kracus wrote:
Yes it does matter. It's blatantly obvious religion is a plague on this earth. One look at the middle east should tell you that and now with the fucking mother of all bible thumping maniacs in power in the us. Sure he's a criminal and an idiot but as long as he pretends to place god in front of everything he's golden. Religion is a very real and very bad problem.
How does it affect the legitimacy of his response, cause does not equal effect in that article. It's your opinion that religion is a plague on the earth, one I may actually agree with you on, but still the response that the theologian came up with is still a valid reply and still hasn't shown a cause effect relationship. Religion may very well be a plague but this article hasn't done anything to show that, it's just a bunch of half facts scattered with gross ignorance of the facts and a conclusion that it's all based on relgion, as if he picked the cause from a dartboard full of sticky's to pick from...
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:05 pm
by Tormentius
Kracus wrote:
Yes it does matter. It's blatantly obvious religion is a plague on this earth. One look at the middle east should tell you that and now with the fucking mother of all bible thumping maniacs in power in the us. Sure he's a criminal and an idiot but as long as he pretends to place god in front of everything he's golden. Religion is a very real and very bad problem.
Even if there was no religion people would use other groups to control and would find other reasons to kill each other. You're trying to blame our basic animalistic tendencies on religion, and prove your own ignorance in doing so. Give it up, you look like a frothing zealot.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:13 pm
by Guest
Tormentius wrote:Kracus wrote:
Yes it does matter. It's blatantly obvious religion is a plague on this earth. One look at the middle east should tell you that and now with the fucking mother of all bible thumping maniacs in power in the us. Sure he's a criminal and an idiot but as long as he pretends to place god in front of everything he's golden. Religion is a very real and very bad problem.
Even if there was no religion people would use other groups to control and would find other reasons to kill each other. You're trying to blame our basic animalistic tendencies on religion, and prove your own ignorance in doing so. Give it up, you look like a frothing zealot.
Am I? Try convincing an atheist to go do a suicide bombing.
Seriously though yes people would use other means to try and convince people into doing things in their best interest that's the nature of greed. The thing though is that these people now that are being convinced to do these things are people that are already supsetible because of the fact they are so religious and obey so blindly. It's the fundamental teachings of religion that affect those that are prone to being naive to ignore logic even more.
You keep calling me ignorant but look at yourself! You can't even tell me why you REALLY beleive in god. you simply have no idea and outright refuse to even try! That's ignorant by definition buddy.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:25 pm
by Duhard
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:55 pm
by Tormentius
Kracus wrote:
Seriously though yes people would use other means to try and convince people into doing things in their best interest that's the nature of greed. The thing though is that these people now that are being convinced to do these things are people that are already supsetible because of the fact they are so religious and obey so blindly. It's the fundamental teachings of religion that affect those that are prone to being naive to ignore logic even more.
If that's the case explain Hitler or Saddam or any number of men who have convinced people to follow them and commit atrocities and didn't use religion to do so. Politics, fear, consumerism, and simple greed are some really basic tools which are currently used to gain control over groups of people around the world.
Kracus wrote:
You keep calling me ignorant but look at yourself! You can't even tell me why you REALLY beleive in god. you simply have no idea and outright refuse to even try! That's ignorant by definition buddy.
I have thought my beliefs and reasons for them at length and, in reaching my conclusions, I have also left open the possibility of being wrong which shows open-mindedness rather than ignorance.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:01 pm
by HM-PuFFNSTuFF
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:01 pm
by Guest
You think hitler wasn't religious and didn't use it to commit those attrocities!? Jesus man hitler was a crazy as religious nuts get. Have you forgotten all the jews he killed just because they were jewish?
Are you trying to tell me that wiping out an entire religion through religious clensing has nothing to do with religion!?
Obviously you have no clue since you yourself are religious, you just admit you might be wrong but still beleive in it probably because you're scared you might be wrong and don't wanna go to hell or whatever. So yeah, you're brainwashed. Maybe if you were openly agnostic I could relate to that a bit.
And you still haven't awnsered my question. You are in denial.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:18 pm
by Tormentius
Duhard the wonky-eyed frog commenting on someone's looks or career. Now that is funny.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:23 pm
by Tormentius
Kracus wrote:You think hitler wasn't religious and didn't use it to commit those attrocities!? Jesus man hitler was a crazy as religious nuts get. .
Go read a book Kracus. Hitler didn't like religion any more than Saddam did and he targetted a nation of people to destroy, not a religion.
Kracus wrote:
And you still haven't awnsered my question. You are in denial.
Kracus, why in fuck would I sit here and type out my entire belief system for you?
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:28 pm
by Guest
I didn't ask you to type out your entire belief system I asked you a simple question. Why do you REALLY beleive in god. I already know the awnser, I'm trying to see if you can find it.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:31 pm
by Tormentius
Kracus wrote:Obviously you have no clue since you yourself are religious, you just admit you might be wrong but still beleive in it probably because you're scared you might be wrong and don't wanna go to hell or whatever. So yeah, you're brainwashed. Maybe if you were openly agnostic I could relate to that a bit.
I just read this again and couldn't help but wonder what you are even talking about here. Correct me if I'm wrong but what it appears you're saying is that a person who follows a religion, yet doesn't do so blindly and without question is brainwashed?
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:36 pm
by Guest
lol...
Ummm exactly how do you follow a religion without following it blindly or without question? Anyone that questions a religion will soon find it doesn't add up torm, that's obvious. So yeah, if you follow a religion you are brainwashed, period. And if you can awnser my question, you'll soon understand why.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:40 pm
by Tormentius
Kracus wrote:I didn't ask you to type out your entire belief system I asked you a simple question. Why do you REALLY beleive in god. I already know the awnser, I'm trying to see if you can find it.
Nice dodge on my first comment. People will commit atrocities without religion Kracus and this has been exhibited many times throughout history.
To answer your question, I believe because I choose to.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:41 pm
by losCHUNK
Kracus wrote:lol...
Ummm exactly how do you follow a religion without following it blindly or without question? Anyone that questions a religion will soon find it doesn't add up torm, that's obvious. So yeah, if you follow a religion you are brainwashed, period. And if you can awnser my question, you'll soon understand why.
the same way your putting complete faith into science
science is always changing, how can you be so sure of it?
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:52 pm
by Guest
losCHUNK wrote:Kracus wrote:lol...
Ummm exactly how do you follow a religion without following it blindly or without question? Anyone that questions a religion will soon find it doesn't add up torm, that's obvious. So yeah, if you follow a religion you are brainwashed, period. And if you can awnser my question, you'll soon understand why.
the same way your putting complete faith into science
science is always changing, how can you be so sure of it?
I realize science is always changing that doesn't detract from the fact that at least in science one can see results of whatever is being tested. Don't compare science to a religion though, I'm sure science would be insulted.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:54 pm
by losCHUNK
im not insulting science, im insulting you
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:05 pm
by Guest
Tormentius wrote:Kracus wrote:I didn't ask you to type out your entire belief system I asked you a simple question. Why do you REALLY beleive in god. I already know the awnser, I'm trying to see if you can find it.
Nice dodge on my first comment. People will commit atrocities without religion Kracus and this has been exhibited many times throughout history.
To answer your question, I believe because I choose to.
Well I think with proper education instead of false education the population as a whole would be a lot more difficult to fool into doing things such as that. I obviously have no proof but it seems logical. As for WW2 having no religious meaning I'm sorry but ultimately religion was used to fool people into fighting. Even saddam had two religions at odds with each other.
As for beleiving because you choose to that's bullshit and you know it. You didn't wake up one day and just choose to beleive in a structured religion, sorry that doesn't fly with me. Someone had to tell you such a religion existed before you ever even know about it. So I'll ask you the question again. Why do you REALLY beleive in religion? I'm not asking a philosophical question here, I want to know exactly what happened that led to you beleiving in a religion. Since you don't seem to know why I'll see if I can tell you.
First off you have to start from a clean slate because we all start with a clean slate. You grew up, learned to speak and likely someone like your parents told you about whatever god you beleive in now just like their parents told them. So you beleive in a god because you were taught about that god from a young age and it's all you've known your entire life. That is why you beleive in religion. If no one had said a word about god and if the word god wasn't even in our vocabulary you would have no beleif in the system you beleive in now. This is a fact and if you refute it you're more foolish than I thought.
Now given that I won't deny the possibility that you MIGHT and I stress this very much but you MIGHT get it in your head that there is another being outside this universe that created this one and view it like you would view a god. But that's the extent of what might happen. beyond that they would be SCIENTIFIC questions, not questions which have millions of worshippers with no awnser.
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:10 pm
by Duhard
Tormentius wrote:Duhard the wonky-eyed frog commenting on someone's looks or career. Now that is funny.
yeah that's funny as hell cause I got all the reasons in the world to look at your picture and die laughing
I'm gonna go buy another webcam tomorrow so I can show you morons why I'm the real deal, the total package has the looks, the skills and the smarts to laught it up big time, nerdo.
stay tuned, I got a lot more reasons incoming.
