Quake3World

I really don't want to leave this discussion without making something clear. I agree with you about guns. Really, I do.

That, however, is not a solution. You're merely talking about limiting the effectiveness of a murderer, and that is a shitty thing to be focusing on. I wish people would be more focused on the cause and possible avoidance of it entirely.

I'm not advocating guns, just trying to look at the bigger picture.

so we should just wait until there is free mental healthcare for all americans? or wait until our culture stops obsessing over violence?

i won't hold my breath.

pop quiz: the kids at columbine brought multiple bombs and guns that day, which killed more and why?

Big deal a few mass murders every few months is a small price to pay for the right of Americans to bear arms. And guns really have nothing to do with the issue anyway, if guns didn't exist then people would just invent something else with the sole purpose of killing as many people as possible with the greatest of ease.

USA USA USA

andyman wrote:mount a crowded sidewalk at 60mph... buy gasoline at the gas station, then walk across the street and buy some fireworks...

you're not too good at this.

lol yeah agreed, I personally think it's just a coincidence that 99% of the time when shit like this happens people happen to be using guns.

Big Kahuna Burger wrote:can I drive my car into an elementary school and kill 18 children? can I drive my car into a movie theater and kill dozens of people? aren't stop lights and stop signs and traffic laws good ideas?

it is absolutely a mental health issue. but the same people who are against gun control are the same people who are against any free mental healthcare for their fellow citizens.

and you can't buy bombs at your neighborhood store.

I oppose gun control and I strongly support widespread, free mental healthcare. No, you can't buy bombs at the corner store, but you can very easily make them in your garage.

I'm reading this discussion and I don't understand something... why does it have to be better mental healthcare OR better gun control? Why the fuck not have both and fix this problem by attacking it from both sides? Less guns for the crazy people, more healthcare so crazy people can get help. WTF are you guys arguing about or is one/both/all of you a complete moron?

Big Kahuna Burger wrote:so we should just wait until there is free mental healthcare for all americans? or wait until our culture stops obsessing over violence?

i won't hold my breath.

So do you feel that because a very, very small percentage of the population can't act responsibly that the majority should be forced to give up their rights?

obsidian wrote:I'm reading this discussion and I don't understand something... why does it have to be better mental healthcare OR better gun control? Why the fuck not have both and fix this problem by attacking it from both sides? Less guns for the crazy people, more healthcare so crazy people can get help. WTF are you guys arguing about or is one/both/all of you a complete moron?

Guns aren't the problem, they're a symptom. 80 million legal gun owners didn't kill people today. One lunatic did. Hey, my 25Mb cable connection makes it easy for me to download a ton of music illegally, we should probably ban it.

obsidian wrote:I'm reading this discussion and I don't understand something... why does it have to be better mental healthcare OR better gun control? Why the fuck not have both and fix this problem by attacking it from both sides? Less guns for the crazy people, more healthcare so crazy people can get help. WTF are you guys arguing about or is one/both/all of you a complete moron?

Yes, it is both. The reason I spoke up in objection is it seems like people just ignore everything else when one of these happens and all we hear is "Kill the NRA!" as if that is the solution. Hearing that pisses me off. Not because I like guns, or I think guns need to be as easy to get as they are, but because it's not the reason for these events, just a means by which they are carried out.

That side of it doesn't come through in quotes like this:

Unisaw wrote:This moment brought to you by the NRA. Merry freakin Christmas.

And Nightshade, something has to be said about the direct correlation between the lack of gun control in the U.S. and the fact that it has the highest amount of annual gun violence cases in any developed nation. Gun control won't stop violence, it may not even prevent mass murders, but it can all the same limit fatalities.

Bombs in your garage? The U.S. has restrictions on the purchase of fertilizer and other bomb building chemicals. Why not have restrictions on guns as well?

Nightshade wrote:

Big Kahuna Burger wrote:so we should just wait until there is free mental healthcare for all americans? or wait until our culture stops obsessing over violence?

i won't hold my breath.

So do you feel that because a very, very small percentage of the population can't act responsibly that the majority should be forced to give up their rights?

I hope you never have to go through something like this, but you'd be singing a much different tune if your daughter went to that school. A lot of innocent people are dead because yet another sick fuck had easy access to an armory.

Nightshade wrote:

obsidian wrote:I'm reading this discussion and I don't understand something... why does it have to be better mental healthcare OR better gun control? Why the fuck not have both and fix this problem by attacking it from both sides? Less guns for the crazy people, more healthcare so crazy people can get help. WTF are you guys arguing about or is one/both/all of you a complete moron?

Guns aren't the problem, they're a symptom. 80 million legal gun owners didn't kill people today. One lunatic did. Hey, my 25Mb cable connection makes it easy for me to download a ton of music illegally, we should probably ban it.

Would you be open to something between what we have now and outright bans? I'd agree that a ban isn't going to solve anything but I think we can take steps to make it harder for a mental to to get his hands on one and try to reduce the number of handguns in general (as I think they're a much bigger problem in gun crime than rifles).

I'm not even speaking on this most recent shooting as it's far too early to comment and we have few details.

I have a feeling this thread will be 8 pages before too long. Call it a hunch.

Awful

Nightshade wrote:Guns aren't the problem, they're a symptom. 80 million legal gun owners didn't kill people today. One lunatic did. Hey, my 25Mb cable connection makes it easy for me to download a ton of music illegally, we should probably ban it.

Who is talking about bans? Countries with gun control still have plenty of guns, they just have laws to make sure those guns aren't being sold to people with criminal records, the mentally unstable or other people who shouldn't have weapons. Your internet analogy isn't a very comparable one but sticking with it, it's the same reason why courts may impose internet restrictions on convicted pedophiles or online fraud artists.

Nightshade wrote:So do you feel that because a very, very small percentage of the population can't act responsibly that the majority should be forced to give up their rights?

Owning a gun isn't a right, it's a privilege. Access to food, water, shelter, fair wage, and freedom are rights. Gun ownership is only a "right" in the U.S. because of your long outdated constitution, which wrote that provision under the assumption that colonial Americans needed guns to form militias to ward off Imperial British soldiers. America has by far the biggest army in the world, your civilian population has little need of an arsenal to protect itself from an invading country. You guys can rearm if Canada ever decides to send south an invading army of grizzles armed with rocket launchers.



It sounds to me as if you are completely mislead on what gun control means and what it's like to live in a country with responsible gun control laws. It does not mean absolutely no guns, it means less handguns, no military grade weapons, no guns for criminals and crazy people. If you're an honest responsible gun owners, you can get a permit just like getting a driver's license. The U.S. needs responsible gun laws just like it needs universal health care, and join the rest of the developed world. It's only your history and tradition of durrrr and heavy lobbying that has preventing it from happening with either issue.

andyman wrote:if you ban guns they'll just use bombs. man has always manipulated the metal, not the other way around.

very saddening day

this this

a shame, at any day.

So what's the verdict on ammunition control?

Every single one of these might have been prevented if getting hold of a gun in this country was as difficult as, say, getting a driver’s ­license or getting a permit to build a deck.

Merry freakin christmas.

obsidian wrote:And Nightshade, something has to be said about the direct correlation between the lack of gun control in the U.S. and the fact that it has the highest amount of annual gun violence cases in any developed nation. Gun control won't stop violence, it may not even prevent mass murders, but it can all the same limit fatalities.

Bombs in your garage? The U.S. has restrictions on the purchase of fertilizer and other bomb building chemicals. Why not have restrictions on guns as well?

There are thousands and thousands of gun laws in the U.S. already. You must be of legal age, you must pass a background check for handguns, you must wait five days, etc., etc. Law after law, restriction after restriction. These already exist, I don't know why people seem to keep overlooking that.

So, I don't believe there's any validity to your claim about a correlation between lack of gun control and gun violence. You say yourself that more gun control won't stop violence, it may not prevent mass murders, etc. Well then, what's the point? What new laws would you propose? Bans don't work, that's been proven. Plus, I feel it's ridiculous to ban something and force millions of people to lose a right that they bear responsibly.

I mean can you people not agree at least that it's a fundamentally flawed idea to restrict the majority because a tiny minority can't act correctly?

Captain Mazda wrote:
I hope you never have to go through something like this, but you'd be singing a much different tune if your daughter went to that school. A lot of innocent people are dead because yet another sick fuck had easy access to an armory.

Trust me dude, it breaks my fucking heart to hear about shit like this, precisely because I do have kids. I cannot imagine what sort of twisted, vile, demented fuck you'd have to be to do something as heinous as murder children.

I'm simply saying that it's more important to focus on the problem, the cause of incidents like this, than the means by which they occur.

EtUL wrote: Would you be open to something between what we have now and outright bans? I'd agree that a ban isn't going to solve anything but I think we can take steps to make it harder for a mental to to get his hands on one and try to reduce the number of handguns in general (as I think they're a much bigger problem in gun crime than rifles).

I'm not even speaking on this most recent shooting as it's far too early to comment and we have few details.

Like what? I've said in the past that I'm not opposed to common-sense restrictions on gun ownership. For example: Gun shows. These things are the biggest collection of freakazoid fundy nutjobs on the planet. Time and again it's been proven that they're avenues for criminals to sell illegal parts and guns. I see no reason for them to exist and I'd have no problem if they were outlawed altogether.

Holy fuck Nightshade you need to get a grip on reality.

Fuck I'm glad I live in Australia.