Quake3World

hax103 wrote:Uhh, how could you EVER experimentally prove that exactly 1 memory had been removed? It also seems like many other memories would be affected, weakened, etc.

Well, being that they are the scientists with the PhD's, etc., and they know a lot more about it than you do, and they are implying that, I think its safe to say that they didn't overlook the one simple question you have there.

hax103 wrote:Uhh, how could you EVER experimentally prove that exactly 1 memory had been removed? It also seems like many other memories would be affected, weakened, etc.

I think I see what you're saying...

I'd presume the rats are getting all kinds of sensory input, not just the sounds, so one might assume that other memories would be activated too, eg. memories of being in the place they're in.

hax103 wrote:Uhh, how could you EVER experimentally prove that exactly 1 memory had been removed? It also seems like many other memories would be affected, weakened, etc.

And that is also why science is an iterative process - keep honing the experiments and eliminating variables until you can confidently say something. In any biological system there is always the potential for unforeseen or initially unobserved changes. But you can't really say that you think other memories would be impacted unless you have the biological basis and data to back it up either....

tnf wrote:

hax103 wrote:Uhh, how could you EVER experimentally prove that exactly 1 memory had been removed? It also seems like many other memories would be affected, weakened, etc.

Well, being that they are the scientists with the PhD's, etc., and they know a lot more about it than you do, and they are implying that, I think its safe to say that they didn't overlook the one simple question you have there.

Next year, I will be a "scientist with a PhD" and one thing I can tell you is that in the peer-review system, there are frequently disagreements as to the meaning of experiments. Also, while we do know how say 2 molecules may join, any scientist at a University will say that the higher level brain, intelligence, memory functions are areas which are "soft" as in not well understood and highly subject to interpretation.

In short, scientists frequently disagree with each other. Please feel free to cast doubt at findings.

tnf wrote:

hax103 wrote:Uhh, how could you EVER experimentally prove that exactly 1 memory had been removed? It also seems like many other memories would be affected, weakened, etc.

And that is also why science is an iterative process - keep honing the experiments and eliminating variables until you can confidently say something. In any biological system there is always the potential for unforeseen or initially unobserved changes. But you can't really say that you think other memories would be impacted unless you have the biological basis and data to back it up either....

Ok, but while we are indulging in idle speculation on an internet forum here (you know, for fun), I might as well say that the explanation they give, as described in the article, doesn't seem to adequately account for how only one memory was altered.

isnt it prove what ur paid to?

them poor rats prolly finily caught on and pret tent to comply

pret tent ?

tnf wrote:Kracus could give it to the women he had sex with maybe.

I say that because I know he's reading the forums now.

hello.

And make her forget the best night of her life? I'm not that mean. j/k

i was going to post a bathroomrelated quip here but I can't be bothered

You can only come up with so many... although maybe someone erased a few from your memories who knows

you may be on to something, that very same evildoer also planted some memories about you smoking it up with Snoop Dogg and crabfishing in Alaska. that cant be true

well if they are able to teach him three different tones and what they represent, and after their dealio it doesnt react to one of those tones anymore.. that pretty much shows progress in the matter innit

hax103 wrote:Uhh, how could you EVER experimentally prove that exactly 1 memory had been removed? It also seems like many other memories would be affected, weakened, etc.

Did you read the article? They don't ever say exactly one memory has been deleted. In fact, they don't mention memory deletion at all. What they do show is that they can disrupt the reconsolidation process that leads to long-term memory, and they identify the mechanism by which reconsolidation occurs.

They demonstrate that they can disrupt the formation of logn-term memory without affecting the same memory in the short-term.

This'll be a fun device for lawyers to pack in court in the future. I can see even more corrupt justice now

werldhed wrote:

hax103 wrote:Uhh, how could you EVER experimentally prove that exactly 1 memory had been removed? It also seems like many other memories would be affected, weakened, etc.

Did you read the article? They don't ever say exactly one memory has been deleted. In fact, they don't mention memory deletion at all. What they do show is that they can disrupt the reconsolidation process that leads to long-term memory, and they identify the mechanism by which reconsolidation occurs.

They demonstrate that they can disrupt the formation of logn-term memory without affecting the same memory in the short-term.

Because long term memory requires protein synthesis they can fuck with probably?

Oh balls they made the article available to subscription only now...

R00k wrote:Boys who are molested as children could possibly benefit from this - those kind of scenarios where the memory doesn't serve any useful function, but rather has the effect of perverting the person's sense of self...

The assumption is being made that a memory--and it's consequential behavior modification--is contained wholly in one location with defined boundaries. Especially in humans, I doubt this is true.

I can see a person having that horrible feeling that something bad happened, but they just can't remember what, in addition to odd behaviors they can't explain. Meanwhile, if they remembered what happened, they would know exactly why they do what they do.

Wabbit wrote:

R00k wrote:Boys who are molested as children could possibly benefit from this - those kind of scenarios where the memory doesn't serve any useful function, but rather has the effect of perverting the person's sense of self...

The assumption is being made that a memory--and it's consequential behavior modification--is contained wholly in one location with defined boundaries. Especially in humans, I doubt this is true.

I can see a person having that horrible feeling that something bad happened, but they just can't remember what, in addition to odd behaviors they can't explain. Meanwhile, if they remembered what happened, they would know exactly why they do what they do.

All this conjecture is interesting, but I think a bit premature as of yet. You are right to look at an event like molestation as something with effects much more far-reaching than a single memory. Several 'neural circuits' (for lack of a better term) will be impacted by an event like that, and their development and lifelong activity will probably be profoundly impacted by the abuse - and I even if you were able to somehow zoom in to the precise 'location' of the memory of said abuse, you still would have a real problem with all the downstream effects that resulted.

Rook, I think a challenge with the hypothetical benefit you propose is that the treatment, if it were ever fine-tuned for human use (something we all agree is a long, long way off), it would probably need to be administred at the point when the short-term memory is being stored as a long term one. This process is biological in nature - it involves protein synthesis as I mentioned earlier - and scientists have known since the late 60's I believe that inhibiting protein synthesis can block the transfer of short-term to long-term memory (btw - I found the article I was lookig for on that subject, I can get copies of the article to people if interested). Anyhow, I'm guessing you'd need to block some aspect of that process - and I don't know much about how you would go about timing the treatment to do this. The biology of memory is something I am pretty ignorant about overall.

This kindof throws a wrench through the spokes, but I think people will be able to be reconditioned (for lack of a better term) through low level electrical impulses and direct chemical or physical intervention won't be necessary.

This --> http://www.newscientisttech.com/article ... alone.html has such potential. Once you can determine what people are thinking, it's just one more step to figure out how to change it.

(in the same vein http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6346069.stm )

Wabbit wrote:

R00k wrote:Boys who are molested as children could possibly benefit from this - those kind of scenarios where the memory doesn't serve any useful function, but rather has the effect of perverting the person's sense of self...

The assumption is being made that a memory--and it's consequential behavior modification--is contained wholly in one location with defined boundaries. Especially in humans, I doubt this is true.

I can see a person having that horrible feeling that something bad happened, but they just can't remember what, in addition to odd behaviors they can't explain. Meanwhile, if they remembered what happened, they would know exactly why they do what they do.

Yea, that's kinda what I was getting at with the rest of that post.

R00k wrote:It raises a whole host of other questions... If, say, someone's childhood memory has influenced nearly every aspect of their life for the past 30 years, then once that memory is erased, what is left to replace the conditioned behaviors that once existed?

I don't know much about neurology, but from what I understand, there are neural pathways in the decision-making parts of our brains that are linked to our memory centers, and draw from them to help evaluate different possible decisions. If the brain attempts to make a decision and finds a "blank slate" where it has found a certain memory every day for 30 years, what kind of effect would this have on a person's decision-making process or abilities?

Is the human brain dynamic enough to start over with that kind of clean slate? Sometimes the use of memories to make decisions is subconscious, and other times it is completely conscious. I know how I would consciously react if I looked for similar memories to help me make a decision in a familiar situation, and found none. But what would happen when this was done on a subconscious level?

lol, so you did Rook.