Quake3World

Ryoki wrote:Agnostics are just uncertain atheists.

most atheists idea's are pretty weak - still better than most christian ideas that run amongst normal people.

Canis wrote:what's bullshit?

Waffles. You think you've got them sussed and then...BAM

Iccy (temp) wrote:A wise man once said.

" Spirituality brings us together, religion tears us apart"


Pretty much sums it up for me.


Personaly i think athiesm is a close minded religion in itself. By denying the existance of god you bind yourself to the same falicy that you claim to renounce. If you claim there is no god, where is your proof?

That's your first problem. I don't need proof that god doesn't exist because I know I'll never find any. Because he doesn't exist. It's as futile as trying to prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist or Santa Clause doesn't exist. I can't prove some spiritual being from another imaginary plane of existance doesn't exist! It's so stupid it's fucking retarded.

The argument of the atheist is that no religions sect can prove they are right through scientific means. But like i said, lack of proof doesnt not equate to lack of existence.

Right........

Prove to me god doesnt exist with hard indisputable facts, that cant be rebutled and you will be justified, till then your just another sheep in another herd, thats pretty much like the one you chose to reject, as much as you might not want to hear it.

Uh huh....

Now if you really wanna talk about god and cant perscribe to a religion or decide if god exists, then agnostic is the way to go. Atleast a agnostic is admiting they simply do not know and is open to debate or facts leading to either direction. Its atleast a true factual and scientific mindset i feel. Atheist seems to be based of the idea of thumbing your nose to a idea, a reaction to the implication of a framework.

Oh and by the way, buddhism isnt a religion, but more a idea of being. Atleast this is my understanding of it. I would say of all organized frameworks, this is my favorite and most powerful one, atleast of the " ancient" paths to walk.


Frankly though i think its so much more simple then we all make it to be, each path holds a key, like a puzzle to a greater picture and its only when you align the universal truths do things come into focus. Like christians are the grace and humility. Buddhist is a idividalist stregth and almost sacrifical compassion, its these parts when looked at in their whole and added together do you see the validity of them all and how each in correct in much of what they say. Each is a representation of the human spirit and in turn a reflection of " god". Course i dont mean god in the christians sense, but more like.... well you know that big sequia thats like acres big, its like a bunch of trees all interconnected and is classified as one organism, even though its kinda not. Its the sum of its parts that make it 1 organism, but if you look at each part of it one by one, it seems separate. I dont know if that explains my point well, but there ya go.


But this is for another thread i suppose.

Ok so you're completely brainwashed.

Foo wrote:

Canis wrote:what's bullshit?

Waffles. You think you've got them sussed and then...BAM

Foo wrote:

Canis wrote:what's bullshit?

Waffles. You think you've got them sussed and then...BAM

I made pancakes this morning and they ended up all flat and burned...bah!

seremtan wrote:

Iccy (temp) wrote:

seremtan wrote:
funny how god is the only thing we ever hear anyone demand proof of NON-existence

oh, and by the way, the burden of proof rests on the believer not on the unbeliever. occam's razor etc.

But as a atheist, you ( meaning them ) are believers. You are a believer in the idea that there isnt a god. The atheist would have you believe they have it figured out and there is no god, thats the definition, "Someone who believes that there is no God."

So lest you have proof of this, as i said, you are simply a hipocrite if you feel you dont need to prove your stance and someone who does believe should.

"...a believer in the idea that there isnt a god..." - i'm also a "believer in the idea" that there isn't a tiny, invisible, swahili-speaking elephant sitting in the room with me, but since i lack proof i guess my belief has the same status as the belief of a hypothetical crazy person that there IS such a thing in the room

if the onus of proof rested equally on believers and skeptics, scientific enquiry would be impossible and our scientific knowledge would be cluttered with un-refuted but "valid" claims about unicorns, angels, pixies and grassy knolls. it doesn't mean none of these things are real, simply that the burden of proof rests on the believer, not the skeptic

and like i said, this rather weak 'non-believing is a kind of faith' argument is only ever applied in the case of god, seldom in the case of other things of which people are skeptical, like ghosts or aliens or whatever. the argument has always sounded to me like a kind of defence mechanism, and a pretty poor one at that

Well thats a cute, but you dont have 95% of the planet telling you that while it might not be a swahili elephant for sure, there is definetly a elphant of some kind in the room. The athiest is claiming that the majority is wrong, so even by your own account, they are required to prove facts as much as the opposing idea. By all accounts the athiest would be the "hypothetical crazy person" would they not?

Mind you im not saying athiests are crazy, i havent closed that door, im just making a point. If you want absolute truth it has to apply on all levels, not just what benefits your view point.

But im with you in a way on religion. I can see how it can be invented to help us not feel alone, a defence response. I also feel religion was invented for control. Social frameworks and mental frameworks put forth by nothing more then another mans/mens minds to sculpt the direction of the human race for their benifiet or for the supposed greater good of all. This is why i cant attend church or any sort of preaching for any religion. I feel if there is something out there, i dont need a person to guide me to it.


Honestly Ser, i think the reason no one can seem to find god is cause he is right in front of us. We are all the body of "god". We are not moved by a divine influence or a demonic influence, we are moved by ourselves. Our lives, this universe is all one organisim so to speak, one being. When you look into the eyes of your fellow man, you see yourself, literaly, like looking at another part of your body. Its a hard vision to see, especialy when you hate the person your looking at, but its the only thing that makes sense. There is no great white beared man in the sky waiting for us, no 72 virgins, this is it, heaven is here, hell is here, its all in the perceptions we chose to utilize, the glasses we look through.

Thats just me though.

Kracus wrote:
Ok so you're completely brainwashed.

Well first of all your concept of god isnt aligned with the context of how im using it, see my post above.

Secondly, if im brainwashed, what are you. Im searching for the truth, whats really out there, your simply saying, why bother, i simply know it to be true.

Where does this idea that you " just know" come from. There is no true deductive reasoning behind your words. It sounds more like a conditioned response. So if anyone is brainwashed its not me cause my ideas are still some what fluid and what i have decided as solid enough to stand on, i still havent closed the door, there is always the possability that im wrong and im open to that and willing to learn and adapt. You have accept a outcome and say it cant be no other.

I cant see how someone can approach this topic, expecialy you with all the posts you make trying to find answers, without having a degree of fluidity and openess to ideas.


Explain to me how im brainwashed kracus. Am i the only one here that thinks that religions are simply social frameworks. Schools of thoughts to perserve ideas that are bigger the the icons attached to them. Representations of simply the human spirit and the nature of us all ? I have come to this conclusion by existing outside of those frameworks, so your claim that im brainwashed strikes me oddly, im only brainwashed by myself.

#1: America is fucked up.
#2: America is not gonna change.

Why argue what makes America so fucked up when they're not gonna change anyway?
A study like this is only going to bring those christian idiots on the fence.

Iccy (temp) wrote:

Kracus wrote:
Ok so you're completely brainwashed.

Well first of all your concept of god isnt aligned with the context of how im using it, see my post above.

Secondly, if im brainwashed, what are you. Im searching for the truth, whats really out there, your simply saying, why bother, i simply know it to be true.

Where does this idea that you " just know" come from. There is no true deductive reasoning behind your words. It sounds more like a conditioned response. So if anyone is brainwashed its not me cause my ideas are still some what fluid and what i have decided as solid enough to stand on, i still havent closed the door, there is always the possability that im wrong and im open to that and willing to learn and adapt. You have accept a outcome and say it cant be no other.

I cant see how someone can approach this topic, expecialy you with all the posts you make trying to find answers, without having a degree of fluidity and openess to ideas.


Explain to me how im brainwashed kracus. Am i the only one here that thinks that religions are simply social frameworks. Schools of thoughts to perserve ideas that are bigger the the icons attached to them. Representations of simply the human spirit and the nature of us all ? I have come to this conclusion by existing outside of those frameworks, so your claim that im brainwashed strikes me oddly, im only brainwashed by myself.

Ok I'll explain why you're brainwashed.

Let's say you give birth to a baby right now and raise it on your own. You never tell the baby about religion but you make up a story that the earth is flat and about the size of your bedroom. So as long as the kid grows up all it knows is it's bedroom and that's his/her world. I suspect the kid will question what's out there beyond his room just like we question whats out there beyond the universe but he'll accept that his world consists of only his bedroom, with no windows obviously.

Why do you think I'm so certain this would work? Because that's exactly why you beleive in religion and why you're brainwashed. You were taught about religion from a very young age when it's very easy to make a child beleive in something so fantasticly retarded. Then there's all the logical problems with religion since it's completely illogical which is really not how the universe works, chaos theory or not. Then there's the number of different religions which all have a tendency to say the other is wrong. Then there's the historians that were actualy alive during the time of christ IN jerusalem that never reported any of the miraculous events that occured during that time. I'm sure a plague of locusts killing firstborns wouldn't have been missed by any historian. Of course that just applies to one type of religion but I'm just using christianity as an example.

The point is that if you had no previous knowledge of religion and someone told you about it you would laugh at them just like you would if a grown man tried to tell you that he got a present from santa clause. It just makes no sense but for some reason some people are so blinded by it that it simply has to exist because there's so many that beleive! beleif in numbers doesn't neccessarily make things true.

The fact is you are a biological being who's parts give you the ability to have a conciousness. That ability has given us as humans the ability to create ideas in our minds and unfortunately some are right and some are wrong. In this case it's definitely wrong. I'd say the fact god hasn't dropped by on earth EVER is evidence enough.

Even your last post is a right on most points. Most people refuse to acknowledge that there is no god because it means there's no afterlife. It's a horrific thought to go from thinking your get to go to neverneverland when you die to when you die you rot. end of story. It literaly turns your whole world upside down.

But back to my main point, the reason so many people beleive in religion and are brainwashed is because they are taught by the people they trust the most at an age where they'll beleive anything they are told.

Ok you know what, you didnt read my post or i didnt convey it right. I started to undo your misunderstandings and trying to express myself, but by that time the post was longer then the first one.

So to clear this up, im not brainwashed cause i dont follow any religion. When i talk about following religion kracus im talking about implicating a social and moral framework for the herd to follow cause some people dont look for the answers and run from what they find. They just want someone to tell them what to think on this topic so they can go be a worker bee, nothing wrong with that.


Anyway, we going to go in circles here.

I find my answers in nature and science and facts. The end.

If anyone genuinely believes an invisible superbeing travelled through space to this location and created everything in a week then quite frankly... they're an idiot.

There is no god, and time spent worshiping one is a waste of time.

If a person can be succesfully led from an early age to obey without question a set of rules then they are likely to be more easily controlled by the leaders/govn'ts into being 'good citizens' and PAY THEIR TAXES' that's why religion exists - control and power.

The very idea that we can be controlled by a set of rules even when we are alone is IMO the most sinister form of brainwashing possible.

Religion at best is a self-help book for idiots who do not know the difference between right and wrong.

Belief in a specific religion means you become prejudiced towards other beliefs and non-believers - you prefer to be with your own kind - not good.

Religion is no longer required to ensure tax payments - we now have a police/legal system to enforce this and our sermons on how society should behave are fed to us in soap-opera/serial TV show format and newsreaders now 'put the fear of god' into us via constant daily terror stories.

If you were placed on a desert island at the age of 1 and brought up by apes - would you believe in god? of course you wouldn't so get your head out of the sand and enjoy some nice bananas.

Having said all that I do ask myself whether I would deny a small girl the comforting thought of beleiving that her mother has gone to heaven, as she clutches her sobbing fathers hand and watches the coffin being lowered at the funeral..

Maybe this is how this whole nonsense started in the first place

:icon27:

Iccy (temp) wrote:Ok you know what, you didnt read my post or i didnt convey it right. I started to undo your misunderstandings and trying to express myself, but by that time the post was longer then the first one.

So to clear this up, im not brainwashed cause i dont follow any religion. When i talk about following religion kracus im talking about implicating a social and moral framework for the herd to follow cause some people dont look for the answers and run from what they find. They just want someone to tell them what to think on this topic so they can go be a worker bee, nothing wrong with that.


Anyway, we going to go in circles here.

I find my answers in nature and science and facts. The end.

Yes there is something wrong with that

Making sheep of a society is exactly the problem I'm discussing!!! I've been saying this whole thread that the problem with religion is that it brainwashes people into simply beleiving what they hear. It's like programing people to be naive about they're surroundings. There is no benefit to this and only problems will occure. You seem to think this is a good thing to give people false hopes and dreams, man, I hope you're never a councilor!

People who ram atheism down peoples throats are equally if not more fucking annoying than happy-clappy evangelists that try to force their beliefs on you.
At least if you tell an evangelist to fuck off before walking away they won't shout names after you.

And an atheist will?

It was kind of meant in jest... but yeah I think there's a greater possibility than with a complete good-goody bible bashing type, not that they're all like that, just the ones I'm thinking of for the purpose of making my completely unempirical point.

ppp wrote:If anyone genuinely believes an invisible superbeing travelled through space to this location and created everything in a week then quite frankly... they're an idiot.

There is no god, and time spent worshiping one is a waste of time.

This is zealotry responding to zealotry. I didn't know anti-intellectualism was back in fashion this week.

ppp wrote:If anyone genuinely believes an invisible superbeing travelled through space to this location and created everything in a week then quite frankly... they're an idiot.

I'll ask the Oxford maths graduate and two PhD physics students (one at Oxford) what they think of being called idiots. Nice generalisation you prat. I'd be surprised if they took everything in the Bible literally too.

Kracus wrote:And an atheist will?

You seem to cling to your bitter beliefs with a fervour which would do any right-wing religious nutjob proud. Remember Kracus, you aren't more enlightened than anybody, you're simply a phone jockey that couldn't get laid until 24 years of age.

Hey at least I'm not spending my life worshiping an imaginary being.

You spend a lot of time banging on about it though.

What I'd really like to see though is someone here actualy explain WHY they beleive in god.

mik0rs wrote:You spend a lot of time banging on about it though.

You would too if you thought 95% of the world was delusional.

I honestly wouldn't, and I'll bet the figure's a fair bit lower than that for people with religious beliefs, not low, but much lower than 95%. I'm more concerned with questions like this.

I'm agnostic btw.

I dunno I don't wear that crap.

Good man :icon14: