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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:37 am
by +JuggerNaut+
this is somewhat true, although some people use an SUV like it's supposed to be used.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:04 am
by [xeno]Julios
haven't read this yet, but it's gladwell, so pretty much guaranteed to be a mind blowing read:

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

*****************************************8

Big and Bad

January 12, 2004

COMMERCE AND CULTURE

How the S.U.V. ran over automotive safety.

In the summer of 1996, the Ford Motor Company began building the Expedition, its new, full-sized S.U.V., at the Michigan Truck Plant, in the Detroit suburb of Wayne. The Expedition was essentially the F-150 pickup truck with an extra set of doors and two more rows of seats--and the fact that it was a truck was critical. Cars have to meet stringent fuel-efficiency regulations. Trucks don't. The handling and suspension and braking of cars have to be built to the demanding standards of drivers and passengers. Trucks only have to handle like, well, trucks. Cars are built with what is called unit-body construction. To be light enough to meet fuel standards and safe enough to meet safety standards, they have expensive and elaborately engineered steel skeletons, with built-in crumple zones to absorb the impact of a crash. Making a truck is a lot more rudimentary. You build a rectangular steel frame. The engine gets bolted to the front. The seats get bolted to the middle. The body gets lowered over the top. The result is heavy and rigid and not particularly safe. But it's an awfully inexpensive way to build an automobile. Ford had planned to sell the Expedition for thirty-six thousand dollars, and its best estimate was that it could build one for twenty-four thousand--which, in the automotive industry, is a terrifically high profit margin. Sales, the company predicted, weren't going to be huge. After all, how many Americans could reasonably be expected to pay a twelve-thousand-dollar premium for what was essentially a dressed-up truck? But Ford executives decided that the Expedition would be a highly profitable niche product. They were half right. The "highly profitable" part turned out to be true. Yet, almost from the moment Ford's big new S.U.V.s rolled off the assembly line in Wayne, there was nothing "niche" about the Expedition.

...

According to Bradsher, internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills. Ford's S.U.V. designers took their cues from seeing "fashionably dressed women wearing hiking boots or even work boots while walking through expensive malls." Toyota's top marketing executive in the United States, Bradsher writes, loves to tell the story of how at a focus group in Los Angeles "an elegant woman in the group said that she needed her full-sized Lexus LX 470 to drive up over the curb and onto lawns to park at large parties in Beverly Hills." One of Ford's senior marketing executives was even blunter: "The only time those S.U.V.s are going to be off-road is when they miss the driveway at 3 a.m."

The truth, underneath all the rationalizations, seemed to be that S.U.V. buyers thought of big, heavy vehicles as safe: they found comfort in being surrounded by so much rubber and steel. To the engineers, of course, that didn't make any sense, either: if consumers really wanted something that was big and heavy and comforting, they ought to buy minivans, since minivans, with their unit-body construction, do much better in accidents than S.U.V.s. (In a thirty-five-m.p.h. crash test, for instance, the driver of a Cadillac Escalade--the G.M. counterpart to the Lincoln Navigator--has a sixteen-per-cent chance of a life-threatening head injury, a twenty-per-cent chance of a life-threatening chest injury, and a thirty-five-per-cent chance of a leg injury. The same numbers in a Ford Windstar minivan--a vehicle engineered from the ground up, as opposed to simply being bolted onto a pickup-truck frame--are, respectively, two per cent, four per cent, and one per cent.) But this desire for safety wasn't a rational calculation. It was a feeling. Over the past decade, a number of major automakers in America have relied on the services of a French-born cultural anthropologist, G. Clotaire Rapaille, whose speciality is getting beyond the rational--what he calls "cortex"--impressions of consumers and tapping into their deeper, "reptilian" responses. And what Rapaille concluded from countless, intensive sessions with car buyers was that when S.U.V. buyers thought about safety they were thinking about something that reached into their deepest unconscious. "The No. 1 feeling is that everything surrounding you should be round and soft, and should give," Rapaille told me. "There should be air bags everywhere. Then there's this notion that you need to be up high. That's a contradiction, because the people who buy these S.U.V.s know at the cortex level that if you are high there is more chance of a rollover. But at the reptilian level they think that if I am bigger and taller I'm safer. You feel secure because you are higher and dominate and look down. That you can look down is psychologically a very powerful notion. And what was the key element of safety when you were a child? It was that your mother fed you, and there was warm liquid. That's why cupholders are absolutely crucial for safety. If there is a car that has no cupholder, it is not safe. If I can put my coffee there, if I can have my food, if everything is round, if it's soft, and if I'm high, then I feel safe. It's amazing that intelligent, educated women will look at a car and the first thing they will look at is how many cupholders it has." During the design of Chrysler's PT Cruiser, one of the things Rapaille learned was that car buyers felt unsafe when they thought that an outsider could easily see inside their vehicles. So Chrysler made the back window of the PT Cruiser smaller. Of course, making windows smaller--and thereby reducing visibility--makes driving more dangerous, not less so. But that's the puzzle of what has happened to the automobile world: feeling safe has become more important than actually being safe.

**************

read the rest of the article here:

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:12 am
by bitWISE
ScooterG wrote:
bitWISE wrote:So what's that mean if I drive the #1 female car? :paranoid: :icon31: :icon25:
What car is it?
2002 Eclipse Spyder

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:18 am
by +JuggerNaut+
where'd you find that stat, bit.

per sales, i would think the Beetle had more girl owners. you don't see many Spyders.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:18 am
by bitWISE
+JuggerNaut+ wrote:where'd you find that stat, bit.

per sales, i would think the Beetle had more girl owners. you don't see many Spyders.
One of the many surveys...let me see what I can find.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:20 am
by +JuggerNaut+
aight coo

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:21 am
by bitWISE
http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2005/05/ ... 3feat.html
Now, based on data generated by Kelley Blue Book last week, we can quantify the Eclipse's femininity: the Eclipse Spyder convertible has the highest percentage of female registrants of any car on the market. The hardtop Eclipse coupe has the fourth highest.
The weird thing is that I tend to see either old women or teenage/college guys driving them. Never any young hotties or old farts.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:30 am
by +JuggerNaut+
interesting. they must sell boatloads in other cities. not too popular with the ladies down here.

thx for the inflammation.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:45 am
by Scourge
+JuggerNaut+ wrote:where'd you find that stat, bit.

per sales, i would think the Beetle had more girl owners. you don't see many Spyders.
Same here. Tons of Beetles with girls driving. Can't even remember the last time I saw a Spyder around here. Starting to see more and more Mini Coopers as well.

As for SUVs, I won't own one. Soon the kids will be out of the house and won't really need large passenger capacity. We have a car for that right now. I do have a Ford Ranger to haul stuff when I need to.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
by Keep It Real
scourge34 wrote:Soon the kids will be out of the house.
:olo: :olo: :olo:

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:33 am
by Ryoki
Kills On Site wrote:Well I've always supported the war and our military.
Which war would that be, the one in Iraq?

They still make people like you? Incredible.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:35 am
by Mr.Magnetichead
Ryoki wrote:
Kills On Site wrote:Well I've always supported the war and our military.
Which war would that be, the one in Iraq?

They still make people like you? Incredible.
I'm still amazed they ever made people like him.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:35 am
by +JuggerNaut+
Ryoki wrote: They still make people like you? Incredible.
Image

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:44 am
by Mr.Magnetichead
BEEP BEEP MEATBOT

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:20 am
by Ryoki
I see you are trying to tell me something Juggy, but i can't quite figure it out!
Perhaps you mean some people are like mindless drones, tragically stuck in the past for all eternity?

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:24 am
by +JuggerNaut+
Ryoki wrote:I see you are trying to tell me something Juggy, but i can't quite figure it out!
Perhaps you mean some people are like mindless drones, tragically stuck in the past for all eternity?
highlighted and in reference to KOS's comment, yes.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:26 am
by Ryoki
Hurray! I feel like i have decoded a supersecret message.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:27 am
by +JuggerNaut+
:D you're smart. i'm surprised you posted, really.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:28 am
by Ryoki
:D

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:43 am
by seremtan
[xeno]Julios wrote:haven't read this yet, but it's gladwell, so pretty much guaranteed to be a mind blowing read:

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

*****************************************8

Big and Bad

January 12, 2004

COMMERCE AND CULTURE

How the S.U.V. ran over automotive safety.

In the summer of 1996, the Ford Motor Company began building the Expedition, its new, full-sized S.U.V., at the Michigan Truck Plant, in the Detroit suburb of Wayne. The Expedition was essentially the F-150 pickup truck with an extra set of doors and two more rows of seats--and the fact that it was a truck was critical. Cars have to meet stringent fuel-efficiency regulations. Trucks don't. The handling and suspension and braking of cars have to be built to the demanding standards of drivers and passengers. Trucks only have to handle like, well, trucks. Cars are built with what is called unit-body construction. To be light enough to meet fuel standards and safe enough to meet safety standards, they have expensive and elaborately engineered steel skeletons, with built-in crumple zones to absorb the impact of a crash. Making a truck is a lot more rudimentary. You build a rectangular steel frame. The engine gets bolted to the front. The seats get bolted to the middle. The body gets lowered over the top. The result is heavy and rigid and not particularly safe. But it's an awfully inexpensive way to build an automobile. Ford had planned to sell the Expedition for thirty-six thousand dollars, and its best estimate was that it could build one for twenty-four thousand--which, in the automotive industry, is a terrifically high profit margin. Sales, the company predicted, weren't going to be huge. After all, how many Americans could reasonably be expected to pay a twelve-thousand-dollar premium for what was essentially a dressed-up truck? But Ford executives decided that the Expedition would be a highly profitable niche product. They were half right. The "highly profitable" part turned out to be true. Yet, almost from the moment Ford's big new S.U.V.s rolled off the assembly line in Wayne, there was nothing "niche" about the Expedition.

...

According to Bradsher, internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills. Ford's S.U.V. designers took their cues from seeing "fashionably dressed women wearing hiking boots or even work boots while walking through expensive malls." Toyota's top marketing executive in the United States, Bradsher writes, loves to tell the story of how at a focus group in Los Angeles "an elegant woman in the group said that she needed her full-sized Lexus LX 470 to drive up over the curb and onto lawns to park at large parties in Beverly Hills." One of Ford's senior marketing executives was even blunter: "The only time those S.U.V.s are going to be off-road is when they miss the driveway at 3 a.m."

The truth, underneath all the rationalizations, seemed to be that S.U.V. buyers thought of big, heavy vehicles as safe: they found comfort in being surrounded by so much rubber and steel. To the engineers, of course, that didn't make any sense, either: if consumers really wanted something that was big and heavy and comforting, they ought to buy minivans, since minivans, with their unit-body construction, do much better in accidents than S.U.V.s. (In a thirty-five-m.p.h. crash test, for instance, the driver of a Cadillac Escalade--the G.M. counterpart to the Lincoln Navigator--has a sixteen-per-cent chance of a life-threatening head injury, a twenty-per-cent chance of a life-threatening chest injury, and a thirty-five-per-cent chance of a leg injury. The same numbers in a Ford Windstar minivan--a vehicle engineered from the ground up, as opposed to simply being bolted onto a pickup-truck frame--are, respectively, two per cent, four per cent, and one per cent.) But this desire for safety wasn't a rational calculation. It was a feeling. Over the past decade, a number of major automakers in America have relied on the services of a French-born cultural anthropologist, G. Clotaire Rapaille, whose speciality is getting beyond the rational--what he calls "cortex"--impressions of consumers and tapping into their deeper, "reptilian" responses. And what Rapaille concluded from countless, intensive sessions with car buyers was that when S.U.V. buyers thought about safety they were thinking about something that reached into their deepest unconscious. "The No. 1 feeling is that everything surrounding you should be round and soft, and should give," Rapaille told me. "There should be air bags everywhere. Then there's this notion that you need to be up high. That's a contradiction, because the people who buy these S.U.V.s know at the cortex level that if you are high there is more chance of a rollover. But at the reptilian level they think that if I am bigger and taller I'm safer. You feel secure because you are higher and dominate and look down. That you can look down is psychologically a very powerful notion. And what was the key element of safety when you were a child? It was that your mother fed you, and there was warm liquid. That's why cupholders are absolutely crucial for safety. If there is a car that has no cupholder, it is not safe. If I can put my coffee there, if I can have my food, if everything is round, if it's soft, and if I'm high, then I feel safe. It's amazing that intelligent, educated women will look at a car and the first thing they will look at is how many cupholders it has." During the design of Chrysler's PT Cruiser, one of the things Rapaille learned was that car buyers felt unsafe when they thought that an outsider could easily see inside their vehicles. So Chrysler made the back window of the PT Cruiser smaller. Of course, making windows smaller--and thereby reducing visibility--makes driving more dangerous, not less so. But that's the puzzle of what has happened to the automobile world: feeling safe has become more important than actually being safe.

**************

read the rest of the article here:

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html
there's no puzzle about it really. advertising and propaganda are one and the same thing applied in different contexts. politicians are basically trying to tap into our own unconscious feelings no less than advertisers, which is why their pronouncements - like those of advertisers - are design to deflect us away from actually thinking and toward just feeling. it's a deeply anti-democratic tendency since it assumes we're incapable of rational thought and have to be manipulated into making the 'right' choice

it amazes me how many of the ingredients of totalitarian culture exist just below the surface in supposedly free, democratic western society

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:50 am
by seremtan
Kills On Site wrote:Well I've always supported the war and our military
mate, "support our troops" translates as "support the government's policy, because there's nothing you can do about it now so you may as well". is bush "supporting the troops" with better pay, war pensions and other help for returning soldiers? no, i didn't think so

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:16 am
by Nightshade
I don't see that as entirely true. I support the troops, but I do so by decrying this farce of a government and a crime of a war.
In the context of the way the Bush camp spins it though, you're correct.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:21 pm
by Zerofactor
Speaking of S.U.V. accidents, I was in the back of an S.U.V. once. A GMC Jimmy to be exact. It was about 4am and the driver was feeling tired, I was unbuckled and lying with my back across the two seats in the back. At one point the person in the passenger seat suggests we go get some breakfast. Our turn comes up for the restaraunt, but we pass right by it. Apparently the driver zonked out for a few seconds and when he woke up, went ahead to make the turn like he had never fallen asleep. Instead of arriving safely into the parking lot of Dennies, we slammed into the back of a parked car and flew directly over it, landing back down on the ground, destroying the SUV's frame and injuring everyone in the vehicle pretty seriously....except me. :) Although I did black out for a few seconds and when I came to I was no longer on my back, I was on all fours. :icon27: Not hurt at all though.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:47 pm
by Zerofactor
Zerofactor wrote:Speaking of S.U.V. accidents, I was in the back of an S.U.V. once. A GMC Jimmy to be exact. It was about 4am and the driver was feeling tired, I was unbuckled and lying with my back across the two seats in the back. At one point the person in the passenger seat suggests we go get some breakfast. Our turn comes up for the restaraunt, but we pass right by it. Apparently the driver zonked out for a few seconds and when he woke up, went ahead to make the turn like he had never fallen asleep. Instead of arriving safely into the parking lot of Dennies, we slammed into the back of a parked car and flew directly over it, landing back down on the ground, destroying the SUV's frame and injuring everyone in the vehicle pretty seriously....except me. :) Although I did black out for a few seconds and when I came to I was no longer on my back, I was on all fours. :icon27: Not hurt at all though.
Image

:icon28:

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:11 pm
by Mr.Magnetichead
Lol, you're talking to yourself. That's really sad.