G8 protests....fucking hippies

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Yeah, but the protestors are all jumping on the bandwagon with no intention of actually helping anyone. They're just on a global capitalism tip; which is funny, because they were all having a pop at their own governments before the new boogeyman came along. Now it's all "the world is being run by corporations and our sovereignty is being eroded"......

Africa has in large part fucked itself, and throwing a tantrum isn't the way to unfuck it.

You base this opinion on what? The above is a very ignorant post. People started opposing gloabalism when they realized what it was truly about. (the rich exploiting the poor) Many people have been working on this issue for over a decade.

As well blaming Africa itself isn't really fair because it's been the West which has enabled all these corrupt tyrants by backing them. What the West has done to Africa is disgraceful. We've been forcing liberalized trade policies on them which has amounted to negative growth for Africa which is obscene for a continent so rich in resources.

Do you really think the G8 leaders would have cancelled the debt of 18 African nations if Geldof hadn't started the Live8 movement? Do you know how many people contacted their government to tell them to do so?

Should we forget all the change which has been achieved through grass roots protesting? Do you need a list?

The way in which the west has been backing these governments is through using them to distribute aid. They're damned if they do give, and they're damned if they don't . Look at Zimbabwe - Mugabe's only political acheivement is to not be English, yet England gives, what, 8 million a year to Zimbabwe, most of which is syphoned off. He's destroyed his own commercial farming operation and his own economy..... and no-one can say a damn thing about it because it's the West interfering.

Most of the debts which were written off were bad debts. They'd have been given up on anyway. As for globalisation being "the rich exploiting the poor" - that's the worst oversimplification I've ever heard. Most of the opposition is just good old fashioned Luddism.

As for Bono and Bob.... if one of them walked into my department and started trying to tell me how to pull a shoulder, I'd tell them to fuck right off. They're distracting from any of the real problems, as a politician can pretend to listen to their gabble for 5 minutes and then carry on with whatever they were doing, all the while seeming more caring by association.

Actually, what has been acheived through grass roots protesting, apart from black eyes for a large number of policemen?

The way we back these governments is through aid? YOU ARE FUCKING KIDDING RIGHT?

I did not oversimplify, I made an accurate statement. if you like I will point you towards resources which will help you to learn the basics of what's going on. you really are completely mis/uninformed on this. opposition to globalization is Luddism? puhlease

in absence of knowing anything about this issue you buy into a load of utter shit

as for change brought about by grassroots activism i can think of a few off the top of my head...

the civil rights movement USA
suffrage movements many
labour rights
Iraq War number 2 successful in many countries

there are many others

edit: trade not aid is how we back the autocrats in Africa extraordinarily unfair trade

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

look at these filthy hippies :icon33:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle ... temID=7359

[Guest]

Does anyone here with a more well developed social conscience than myself know how going up to Edinburgh and hitting a few coppers is going to help the state of Africa? I'm a bit confused, but I guess I've had one too many baths.

I'm expecting something along the lines of "Yeah, the MAN has infiltrated the protests and the violence is all staged", but TBH it's just the same lot who turn up at any protest and make dicks of themselves for publicity, isn't it?

Most are usualy upset at the WTO which really when you look at it is a legitimate thing to protest, not sure I agree with violence.

[R00k]

The way in which the west has been backing these governments is through using them to distribute aid. They're damned if they do give, and they're damned if they don't . Look at Zimbabwe - Mugabe's only political acheivement is to not be English, yet England gives, what, 8 million a year to Zimbabwe, most of which is syphoned off. He's destroyed his own commercial farming operation and his own economy..... and no-one can say a damn thing about it because it's the West interfering.

Most of the debts which were written off were bad debts. They'd have been given up on anyway. As for globalisation being "the rich exploiting the poor" - that's the worst oversimplification I've ever heard. Most of the opposition is just good old fashioned Luddism.

As for Bono and Bob.... if one of them walked into my department and started trying to tell me how to pull a shoulder, I'd tell them to fuck right off. They're distracting from any of the real problems, as a politician can pretend to listen to their gabble for 5 minutes and then carry on with whatever they were doing, all the while seeming more caring by association.

Actually, what has been acheived through grass roots protesting, apart from black eyes for a large number of policemen?

You should look into the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman," for a little broader view on this subject.

[Cool Blue]

Does anyone here with a more well developed social conscience than myself know how going up to Edinburgh and hitting a few coppers is going to help the state of Africa? I'm a bit confused, but I guess I've had one too many baths.

I'm expecting something along the lines of "Yeah, the MAN has infiltrated the protests and the violence is all staged", but TBH it's just the same lot who turn up at any protest and make dicks of themselves for publicity, isn't it?

I agree, I have always though that violent demostration is one of the <i>worst</i> ways to make your point and attract attention to it.

It's also the best way in my opinion to discredit yourself.

[Geebs]

Actually, what has been acheived through grass roots protesting, apart from black eyes for a large number of policemen?

i think you overstepped the line between considered comment and idiocy here

um, let's see: democracy and individual liberties for starters. all the stuff that rulers don't usually hand out benevolently but has to forced from them

Bollocks. Human rights as we understand them were defined by the UN in 1948 - so what you consider to be your individual liberties are defined and protected by the people you're criticising.

Democracy is a system of government by which the entire voting population can actively take part in government. The Athenian model doesn't work outside the city state, which is why there is a bureacracy.

In England, the Divine Right of Kings wasn't eliminated by a bunch of peasants with rakes. It was eliminated by the middle classes.

Solidarity was supposed to be a grassroots movement, but actually it was a trade union.

[losCHUNK]

chartist movement was fought by men and women with rakes

edit: before i say anything else what is grassroots protesting ?

is that the violent one ? :P

[R00k]

In a lot of countries, the middle class ARE men and women with rakes.

[losCHUNK]

nah, iirc (which i prolly wont) the chartist movement was because the lower class couldnt vote I THINK

[Geebs]

The way we back these governments is through aid? YOU ARE FUCKING KIDDING RIGHT?

I already told you. Google "wabenzi"

I did not oversimplify, I made an accurate statement. if you like I will point you towards resources which will help you to learn the basics of what's going on. you really are completely mis/uninformed on this. opposition to globalization is Luddism? puhlease

That's not an argument, that's just contradiction

in absence of knowing anything about this issue you buy into a load of utter shit

That's just not an argument at all

as for change brought about by grassroots activism i can think of a few off the top of my head...

the civil rights movement USA
suffrage movements many
labour rights
Iraq War number 2 successful in many countries

The anti-war protests were successful? What the fuck are you on, IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE THERE WAS A WAR IN IRAQ AND THE US ARE CURRENTLY IN OCCUPATION. That's about as successful as the dinosaurs' grassroots anti-meteor protest.
[quote="HM-PuFFNSTuFF]edit: trade not aid is how we back the autocrats in Africa extraordinarily unfair trade[/quote]
Then why were commentators on Rwanda pointing out that, during the genocide, the soldiers commiting atrocities made their way to the refugee camps, stocked up on food aid, and then headed back off to kill more Tutsis? Armies march on their stomachs.

[Geebs]

In a lot of countries, the middle class ARE men and women with rakes.

:icon27:

[Geebs]

chartist movement was fought by men and women with rakes

edit: before i say anything else what is grassroots protesting ?

It's what so-called anarchists who live off social security do with their large amounts of spare time.

[R00k]

In a lot of countries, the middle class ARE men and women with rakes.

:icon27:

Bollocks. Human rights as we understand them were defined by the UN in 1948

:icon27:

The Athenian model doesn't work outside the city state, which is why there is a bureacracy.

:icon27:

In England, the Divine Right of Kings wasn't eliminated by a bunch of peasants with rakes. It was eliminated by the middle classes.

:icon27:

[R00k]

chartist movement was fought by men and women with rakes

edit: before i say anything else what is grassroots protesting ?

It's what so-called anarchists who live off social security do with their large amounts of spare time.

And for good measure:

:icon27:

[Geebs]

Nice argument.

[losCHUNK]

in that case, the chartist movement was a good example :]

[Geebs]

The Chartists obtained one and a quarter million signatures and presented the Charter to the House of Commons in 1839, where it was rejected by a vote of 235 to 46. Many of the leaders of the movement, having threatened to call a general strike, were arrested. When demonstrators marched on the prison at Newport, Monmouthshire, demanding the release of their leaders, troops opened fire, killing 24 and wounding 40 more. A second petition with 3 million signatures was rejected in 1842; the rejection of the third petition in 1848 brought an end to the movement.

It's not much of an example of successful grassroots action. More the online petition of its day....

Isn't it a bit contradictory that most of the people who believe that grassroots action has been successful in the past are the ones who also believe that the entire of human history has been manipulated by a shadowy elite?

[R00k]

Nice argument.

I was only imitating yours, master-debater.

[Geebs]

Nice argument.

I was only imitating yours, master-debater.

OK, I'll try a different tack: the only country in which the middle classes were the guys with rakes was China during the cultural revolution. And they weren't the ones revolting.

[losCHUNK]

The Chartists obtained one and a quarter million signatures and presented the Charter to the House of Commons in 1839, where it was rejected by a vote of 235 to 46. Many of the leaders of the movement, having threatened to call a general strike, were arrested. When demonstrators marched on the prison at Newport, Monmouthshire, demanding the release of their leaders, troops opened fire, killing 24 and wounding 40 more. A second petition with 3 million signatures was rejected in 1842; the rejection of the third petition in 1848 brought an end to the movement.

It's not much of an example of successful grassroots action. More the online petition of its day....

Isn't it a bit contradictory that most of the people who believe that grassroots action has been successful in the past are the ones who also believe that the entire of human history has been manipulated by a shadowy elite?

w000t, my great great great (or someshit) grandaddy and nan lead that

and it lead to something being done, let me go reading up on it a sec and see if i can find out

(dont be a hater, most people my age aint got a clue about stuff like this )

[losCHUNK]

and im not sure how good of an arguement this is either but what about the scots / welsh / irish revolting against the english ?

[Geebs]

and im not sure how good of an arguement this is either but what about the scots / welsh / irish revolting against the english ?

I dunno if that counts. Those things were usually lead by the gentry or, more recently with devolution, the politicians.

[Geebs]

(dont be a hater, most people my age aint got a clue about stuff like this )

I wasn't hating on you, BTW *wubs*

[losCHUNK]

good stuff, ill stop arguing now as im out of my depth and not fond of doing much reading atm :]

[R00k]

Nice argument.

I was only imitating yours, master-debater.

OK, I'll try a different tack: the only country in which the middle classes were the guys with rakes was China during the cultural revolution. And they weren't the ones revolting.

Well I was talking more about today's middle class, in poor countries.

And I'm not trying to say anything one way or the other about the violent protestors you guys had up there - you know them better than I do. I'm just taking issue with the generalities you made about Africa, and grass roots movements never accomplishing anything.