Quake3World

its all good man, hope to see ya around the Ap Lounge more often.

saturn wrote:Ryoki is right, that's why we evolved from medieval justice. Even when it comes to horrible crimes like this you have to detach your emotions and feelings so it doesn't influence the process in a subjective way.

Revenge is not retribution

An analogy would be beating your child severely for breaking a family heirloom.

Better to detach yourself and deal with the kid after you're not angry anymore.

I know it's not the best analogy -- breaking an object doesn't come anywhere near the pain involved in having something tragic happen to one of your children -- but I have to admit I think the reasoning behind it is the same.

That said, I also have to admit that it would be very hard to overcome a desire for swift revenge if anything like that ever happened to a child in my family, or a child I knew.

Because my first instinct is also the wood-chipper. But then I think, if the guy who committed the crime was, say, my brother, then I would surely hope for some forgiveness and lenience, and I would hope that he would be allowed to live, even if in a maximum security psych ward or something.

[xeno]Julios wrote:I tend to agree with Ryoki, though I would add that in addition to protection for society (from the criminal), there should be, in addition, a focus on rehabilitation of the criminal.

Also, protection for society can be in the direct way (by jailing the perpetrator) or by deterrence (by making it less likely that others will commit crimes).

I don't believe in retributive justice, although if someone close to me was brutally murdered, it would be very hard to overcome the feelings. But I would rather resolve the feelings by watching the criminal accept his crime, and rehabilitate, than by bitter vengeance.

We are in agreement. My first post was rather sloppy, but I think I got my point across.

good addition to my post rook

[xeno]Julios wrote:
I don't believe in retributive justice, although if someone close to me was brutally murdered, it would be very hard to overcome the feelings. But I would rather resolve the feelings by watching the criminal accept his crime, and rehabilitate, than by bitter vengeance.

I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.

riddla wrote:I might agree with the utopian stance on other crimes but sorry, anyone who does this to a child instantly deserves death. Yes, a public death to make others think twice when they start to entertain the idea of BEATING AND RAPING A CHILD AND THEN LEAVING HER TO DIE.

Consider what position the death penalty would put child fuckers in. Once they've committed the crime, they will either be forced to kill the children or risk facing execution by letting them go.

The result? Less child sex abuse cases, more child sex abuse homicide cases.

lars63 wrote:Do you feel a sexual predator can be cured? I always thought sex was a preference and trying to change a predators sexual orientation was like trying to make a gay person straight or vice versa

Perhaps they can't be cured. Even more reason to have pity on them. You can still jail them to provide societal security - it just doesn't have to be with retributive intentions.

Nightshade wrote:
I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.

Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.

Hence, the very concept of "deserve" doesn't mean anything fundamentally.

riddla wrote:I'm of the belief that child molesters should be put into wood chippers in the middle of town square.

ballsack 1st

[xeno]Julios wrote:

Nightshade wrote:
I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.

Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.

Hence, the very concept of "deserve" doesn't mean anything fundamentally.

Ok, that's an entirely different discussion.

[xeno]Julios wrote: Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.

Ah I see. Still though, pragmatically should we not engender responsibility within individuals so they feel responsible for some of their actions?

I don't want to get into a FW discussion here and now, but I believe given my cursory analysis of this issue, that free will exists just not in an absolute sense. I think free will increases in the direction of greater complexity of life. Where humans would have more free will than apes, and apes more than insects. I don't have a high degree of confidence in this position simply because I have not given the question enough consideration. However, with degrees of free will, there can be degrees of responsibility.

Riddla, I make no apologizies for these people. I would just like to see the best method of reducing crime applied, all things considered.

will reply in more depth later - suffice it to say for now that yes I believe in making sane decisions. And i definitely think that society should promote sane decision making.

Nightshade wrote: I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.

I believe life imprisonment is far worse than any violent death.

Ryoki wrote:

Nightshade wrote: I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.

I believe life imprisonment is far worse than any violent death.

I guess it depends who you are.

I heard life imprisonment is actually cheaper though, compared with current methods of execution.

If I did something like that, I would rather be killed than jailed for the rest of my long life.

[xeno]Julios wrote:

Nightshade wrote:
I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.

Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.

Hence, the very concept of "deserve" doesn't mean anything fundamentally.

Yeah, I agree about deserving, though I don't think I'd make reference to free will or lack of.

The woodchipper people are mistaken if they think death is gonna deter someoene who's fucked up in the head from doing something that's already heavily punished, not to mention percieved as the worst crime someone can commit.

I hardly think a person on the brink of committing such a crime weighs things up and say "Hmm, if it was just life imprisonment and being regarded as the scum of the earth I'd say totally worth it, but if the punishment's death I'll just have to be good."

People always talk about feelings, like, "If they did this to someone close to YOU, YOU'd feel like killing them!"

But so what, I might feel like doing a lot of stupid things at times (actually I don't, I don't really get emotional), but it doesn't make them good ideas for laws.

raw wrote:LOL! I live minutes from Lake Worth and didn't even hear about this.

Well the story broke on CNN's site 30 minutes before I made the thread, so it'll probably be on the evening news.

dmmh wrote:old

See my above post.

Rehabilitation is bullshit. The percentage of inmates who get rehabilitated and proceed to stay out of trouble is so small it's laughable. Most end up committing the same crime again, if not a worse crime.

Live in prison is bullshit, too. It costs $60,000 to imprison a man per year. The death penalty is just a quick spike in the electrical bill.

riddla wrote:They could dangle him and then pull the guy out for a 3 hr break once his legs are gone

dangle him, upside down, then cut small slits in his skin at the ankles, grab pliers, and start pulling his skin downward until all is removed. at this point, you blind fold one kid at a time and say to pin the tail on the donkey. they have no idea it's a skinned and live human and it makes for great fun. of course he's got toothpicks in his eyelids and a small lcd monitor in front of his face with live video so he can witness the entire event.

I've said this before, but I think that the death penalty in it's current implementation is not an effective deterrent. If more people were put up against a wall and shot, I feel that it would keep SOME people from committing cold-blooded murder.
But, that opens up a whole can of worms regarding the inherent flaws in the US criminal justice system.

Ryoki, in all honesty I think that the punishment for a convicted offender should be left up to the family members. I don't think that someone that commits a heinous, violent, evil act should be afforded better housing, education, and health care than many poor people can get. I'm sure prison really sucks, which is why we have such high rescidivism rates, but I can't ever see myself thinking that someone that perpetrates something so awful should be allowed to live.

We should move everyone in Nevada to surrounding states (except for Las Vegas) and turn the state into a giant prison. Put a wall around the whole thing and just airlift inmates in there. They get to fend for themselves for the duration of their stay. Vegas can be made into a tourist destination to watch the inmates fight with each other. Or something like that. Was going to really elaborate, but I can't be arsed, heh.

I agree with Ryoki on this one.

Nightshade wrote:I hope to god you never have to ask yourself if you still believe this statement while standing over your child's hospital bed.
If that happened to my daughter, I would do everything I possibly could to make sure that whoever did it met a BAD end.

..and as soon as you've done that, your society will put you to the chair. Or whatever.

Point being, it's just cyclical. If you're not enough of a person to let the buck stop at your door.. well, fuck ya.

riddla wrote:I'm of the belief that child molesters should be put into wood chippers in the middle of town square.

Agreed..