AEon needs a new PC :)

[obsidian]

When I said "Business", I meant "Professional". I got mixed up with "Office Small Business". FFS, Microsoft, just make ONE version of Windows and be done with it, let the user configure stuff they don't need. Mac OS X is just OS X regardless if you are a home user on a $600 Mac Mini or a professional in a $50K studio (plus it's only $30).

Retail - no limitation on how customers can install and use the OS, as long as each PC has its own legitimate license. Full retail can perform either clean and upgrade install, and can be transferred to upgraded or entirely new systems as long as only one copy is installed at a time.

OEM/System Builder - has limitation that it can only perform a clean install or custom install, but not upgrade. Can only be installed on one computer, and is forever locked and bounded to the computer (motherboard) of which it’s installed (though if you call MS and tell them that your mobo fried and it's installed on a replacement, they'll just reactivate it for you).

Upgrades cost about the same as the OEM, so even if a new version of Windows rolls around, I find there's little incentive to buy the full retail version. Once again Microsoft, make ONE version to cut down on the confusion and make it affordable so people will actually buy it instead of having to resort to using OEM or pirated copies.

[AEon]

obsidian,
something I was wondering about the SATA drives and your P6T mainboard (took a look at your images in the forum thread you posted).

• How exactly are these new SATA cables/drives handled?
  As I understand it there is one separate direct connection from the MB to *each* of the HDD/SSD/DVD, so you will not need to define "primary" / "secondary" drives like for IDE?
• How many such SATA connects does your P6T have?
  I'll need at least 4 (2xHHD, 1xSSH, 1xDVD-Burner).
• I noted that there are ATA-150 and ATA-300 certified cables?
  Seems the DVD burner only needs ATA-150, the HDDs on the other hand seem to use ATA-300. Anything I need to look out for here?

I ask about this because my old ASUS P4PE MB had a SATA interface (quite modern 8 years ago), but I had quite a few problems to get it to *not* use some RAID setup... I probably actually failed, but it still somehow worked. So I want to make sure I understand how this SATA connecting business works and what the pitfalls are.

Thanks.

[obsidian]

Yes, one cable directly from device to motherboard. No dip switches to worry about. Basically just plug it in, make sure BIOS knows which one to boot into first, and you're good to go.

I think my mobo comes with 6 SATA connectors, 2 SAS (serial attached SCSI - backward compatible with SATA), PATA and legacy floppy. It's actually an older motherboard, I'm pretty sure there's newer boards replacing it with better features and cheaper prices. You can keep your old burners if you go parallel.

Just get ATA-300 cables, they'll work with both optical and older HDDs. The extra 150 lines on ATA-300 are ground wires that help with reducing electrical interference. I actually just replaced my ATA-150 cables to my optical drives because I was having problems with burn errors from every software I tried. It could read CD/DVDs just fine, but would produce errors at the very end of the burning process. Swapping the cable out to ATA-300 fixed the problem. You can imagine how much head bashing it took to figure that the cable was the issue.

[AEon]

That would make SATA drives almost plug'n'play... hoping for the best.

I noted my old MB P4PE seems to have had two SATA cables included, will check what those MBs come with in addition. Looking for your MB the P6T I noted several derivatives of this board name, probably upgrades in one way or another.

Good to know about about such ATA-150 issues.

Alas the costs are adding up quite quickly, here my present (first draft hardware, probably still missing the ATA-300 cables, also missing delivery fees):

Code: Select all

    220,00 €    ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 X58 S1366 ATX (254 Alternate, KM 250)
(   294,00 €    ASUS Rampage II Extreme X58 S1366 ATX (for over-clockers)

    258,00 €    Intel Core i7 920 2.67GHz 4800MT/s S1366 8MB 130W BOX (232 or 225)
    290,00 €    1024MB Powercolor Radeon HD5850 PCS+ GDDR5 PCIe
    181,95 €    3x2048MB Mushkin Redline DDR3-1600 CL6 Kit "Red Frostbyte" DDR3 SDRAM, 1600 MHz ( PC3-12800 ), CL6 ( 6-8-6-24 ), 1.65 V

    113,00 €    Tower(Coolermaster HAF 932)
    105,00 €    Corsair HX620W PSU
     45,01 €    500GB Seagate ST3500418AS 7200 16MB 7200 U/min SATA [ATA-300]
     45,01 €    500GB Seagate ST3500418AS 7200 16MB 7200 U/min SATA [ATA-300]
    194,71 €    80GB Intel X25-M G2 Postville 2.5" SATA Retail [80 GB, 250 / 70 MB/s] 40 GB?
     45,62 €    Plextor PX-880SA SATA RETAIL BLACK [DVD Burner]

    124,90 €    Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit (UK) (will only work on my PC/MB)
     37,64 €    Hama DVI DUAL LINK 5 M (Abgeschirmt) DVI-D 5m cable
     10,36 €    DIGITUS 7-port Hub Design 7 x USB A Buchse [USB 2.0 Hub]
     15,93 €    Hama USB.ANSCHL.KABEL TR. 5,0M [A,B USB Hub cabel 5m]
     23,33 €    Cherry G81-3000LPCDE-0 hellgrau USB/PS2 [Cherry Keyboard]
     29,33 €    Logitech MX518 Optical Gaming Mouse USB Refresh [Optical, 1800dpi, Win7]
     28,62 €    NZXT Sentry 2 TouchScreen Fan Controller
  ----------
    1786 EU

So far I have not added the "ASUS Rampage II Extreme", the board seems to be for folks that want to use dual or even triple "SLI". Since I am not actually planning that, the board is probably not the right one anyway. Some additional price comparisons should hopefully bring down the prices some more.

Important: I noted your RAM was pretty cheap for 6 GB... and it seems to be running at CL8, I have CL6 RAM here. Is it actually the right thing to do, to go with "faster" DDR3?

[Foo]

Something I don't understand yet though is what a "SystemBuilder" version of Win7Pro (or the other versions) is supposed to be compared to the "Full Version". The former costs about 125 EU and the full version is around 300 EU. Possibly the SystemBuilder version is missing all the manuals? Hmmm... strange. (Might be the OEM version).

Yep they're talking about the OEM version. Its functionally identical to the retail equivalent, but the license is tied to the PC and cannot be transferred to a new PC (it won't activate). You can upgrade components in the same PC and the license is still valid, though sometimes you'll have to ring microsoft to get the it re-activated if you swap out the entire motherboard/chip setup.

Those were the so called "Boxed" versions of the chips right? Are those already "mounted on the chip... how could they I guess... so the boxed version should have some "CPU contact paste" included, I hope.

Yes, the retail/boxed versions. The heatsink comes in the package and chip contact is done via a pre-applied 'thermal pad' on the bottom of the heatsink. You mount the chip then pull the cover off the heatsink base, and strap the heatsink in above the chip. Some come with paste, some don't need it.

That would make SATA drives almost plug'n'play... hoping for the best.

Plug'n'play means no manual driver installation... all drives have been plug'n'play for years

You mean hot-add or hot-swap. You can hot-add with SATA too (meaning, you can plug a new SATA drive in while the PC is turned on, and it'll become visible to Windows in computer management). You couldn't hot-add with IDE.

I noted my old MB P4PE seems to have had two SATA cables included, will check what those MBs come with in addition. Looking for your MB the P6T I noted several derivatives of this board name, probably upgrades in one way or another.

The retail motherboard you're buying with probably come with some SATA cables, as will the DVD drive. You may need to supplement a few, but I'd wait until you have the components and can see how many are included. I wouldn't use the ones that came with your previous mobo, unless they're rated for 300.

Important: I noted your RAM was pretty cheap for 6 GB... and it seems to be running at CL8, I have CL6 RAM here. Is it actually the right thing to do, to go with "faster" DDR3?

There's not much in it. Again, the lower CL RAM is more targeted to overclockers and general performance freaks. CL8 is fine.

The dual-link DVI cable is overkill, mind. You only need a regular DVI cable at whatever length you require. There's no delay or image quality difference between DVI cables. They're digital, and either they work or they don't. Hence, just get the cheapest cable at the length you require. Dual-Link cables are only used for screens that run at very high resolutions, or that refresh at 120hz. Your screen (65hz at 1920*1050) only requires a single-link DVI connection.

[Captain]

Why is your DVD burner so expensive? I bought my Lite-On for $20 from Tigerdirect.

[AEon]

Why is your DVD burner so expensive? I bought my Lite-On for $20 from Tigerdirect.

Probably because it's a Plextor and a SATA drive. Or maybe the retailer I searched only has one of those SATA DVD burners and is overpricing this one for some reason. Will look into it. Any "cheap" one should actually do. [Strange, the cheapest "LiteOn DVD+-R/RW/DL/RAM SATA black" is still 25,76 €]

Foo,
yo, I could probably save some cash on the DVI cable then...

Since, I was not planning on installing Win7 elsewhere, I should be fine with the OEM version.

The ready to use "paste strip" on the retail CPU cooler sounds good, i.e. for hardware semi-dummies like myself.

"Plug'n'play" SATA... you are of course right... I was using it more in the sense "connect and forget"... though as mentioned on my old MB that really was a pain to get working properly.

SATA cables... I read in a review that the "ASUS P6T Deluxe V2" actually comes with 6 SATA cables... that would be very convenient. I have looked at similar boards "ASUS P6T" and "ASUS P6T SE", these are cheaper, but from what I gathered these may have other drawbacks, i.e. not support faster DDR3 RAM... so I'll stick to what seems to work for obsidian i.e. the "ASUS P6T Deluxe V2". Note the V2 is not actually an upgrade, but the same board without "SAS".

Presently reading up on the components, to see what I can learn.

As always, feedback very much appreciated.

[Captain]

I have the LH-20a1s SATA drive

[AEon]

Found a slightly better PSU than the one obsidian uses: Corsair PSU 650 HX - 650 Watt. Page is, alas, in German, but the images of the modular cable system are nifty, for those interested. This means, you can add as few cables as you actually need, probably only 2... one for the 3 Sata drives, and one for the SATA DVD burner. Anyway now I understand why this PSU should be chosen.

[Foo]

Don't forget power connections to the graphics card. On the more powerful models it's 2 x 6-pin connections.

[AEon]

Foo,
yeah... and the two connectors to the main board of course. This setup should yield a really clean cable layout... in my present PC all the IDE cables (round, yellow) though better than the flat cables still got in the way... "ATX Midi Cooler Master HAF Mini RC-922M-KKN1-GP - black" lets you put in the HDDs at an 90° angle, so again the cables point toward the mainboard side of the tower and are *not* in the airflow.

Win7 Questions

• How strict is the account management in Win7?
  I have been reading up on various driver updates for the P6T Deluxe V2, e.g. for LAN/Ethernet, with this info:

  Code: Select all

  NOTE: To install the driver, you have to be logged in as 
        a user with administrative rights.

  Under WinXP "everyone" was running his PC with admin rights (at least I think I did ). But from what I read about Win7 the account management is a lot more strict (more along lines of e.g. Linux accounts)?
  
  How does this actually work in Win7? Do you automatically create an admin account that you need to log into when installing certain software (probably anything critical i.e. driver/system related), plus you have to create a "user account", that you would be using most of the time, that also lets you install games and the like?
  
  Under WinXP you basically could install software for the "current account" (that was an admin account) or "globally"... maybe I never really understood what was going on under XP. Hmmm...
• Any other fundamentals that a Win7-newbie should be aware of?
• I'll probably get a complete Kaspesky AV set (possibly with firewall), because I want to avoid deinstalling my Kaspersky on the working WinXP PC. Or does Win7Pro actually provide some useful Anti-Virus protection out of the box?
• Backup Tool in Win7?
  I read up on that, but there is always talk of a "complete environment backup". Since I am used to simply backup the C:\ partition (that contains everything relevant via Norton Ghost)... I am wondering about that phrase. Has anyone ever used this sort of backup and what experiences did he/she make with the Win7 tool?

Sorry to bug you folks, but I'd like to understand the fundamentals, before I mess up something.

[Foo]

[*] How strict is the account management in Win7?
I have been reading up on various driver updates for the P6T Deluxe V2, e.g. for LAN/Ethernet, with this info:

Code: Select all

NOTE: To install the driver, you have to be logged in as 
      a user with administrative rights.

Under WinXP "everyone" was running his PC with admin rights (at least I think I did ). But from what I read about Win7 the account management is a lot more strict (more along lines of e.g. Linux accounts)?

How does this actually work in Win7? Do you automatically create an admin account that you need to log into when installing certain software (probably anything critical i.e. driver/system related), plus you have to create a "user account", that you would be using most of the time, that also lets you install games and the like?

Windows 7 has 'elevation' which is basically the same as doing a su in Linux to jump up to root. In Win 7, everything runs by default in your session under non-administrative permissions. However, if a program requires administrative permissions, then when you load it, the screen will dim and a prompt will appear asking if you approve the program for administrative access. You can also explicitly launch a program with admin priveledges by right-clicking it and selecting 'Run As Administrator'.

The practical impact of this is pretty low. Almost all programs and drivers will give you a prompt when being installed, and then not bother you again after that. In a few cases, a program with compatibility issues may need you to click 'yes' every time you load it. The only program I've had to do this with so far is the VMWare VI Client at work, and I believe it's been fixed in the latest updates.

So no faffing around creating extra accounts or switching accounts or any of that jazz.

Under WinXP you basically could install software for the "current account" (that was an admin account) or "globally"... maybe I never really understood what was going on under XP. Hmmm...

Yeah this still pops up now and again in Vista and Win 7. It basically decides whether the program is installed under the 'Program Files' folder on your root drive, or installed in the Application Data folder under the 'Documents and Settings' folder. In the latter case, that folder is private to your user account and hence not visible to other users.

[*] Any other fundamentals that a Win7-newbie should be aware of?


[*] I'll probably get a complete Kaspesky AV set (possibly with firewall), because I want to avoid deinstalling my Kaspersky on the working WinXP PC. Or does Win7Pro actually provide some useful Anti-Virus protection out of the box?

Windows Security Essentials is the way to go with this. It's the MS-issued AV and the only reason it didn't ship with the OS is antitrust concerns. It's free and absolutely seamless. Likewise, the built-in firewall is solid. I wouldn't recommend any third-party AV or firewall software on Windows 7, as the built in stuff plus a copy of MSE are all I need.

[*] Backup Tool in Win7?
I read up on that, but there is always talk of a "complete environment backup". Since I am used to simply backup the C:\ partition (that contains everything relevant via Norton Ghost)... I am wondering about that phrase. Has anyone ever used this sort of backup and what experiences did he/she make with the Win7 tool?

http://imgur.com/zvgSo.jpg
http://imgur.com/qxgbd.jpg
http://imgur.com/yHrkG.jpg
http://imgur.com/aXbkU.jpg
http://imgur.com/2M5nb.jpg
http://imgur.com/yxctr.jpg

In terms of what's created, the 3 items are shown here:
http://imgur.com/yxctr.jpg
I could have probably pointed it to a subfolder to keep things neater.

Trying to open the Foo-PC folder pops up a restore menu automatically:
http://imgur.com/gMW0U.jpg

[AEon]

Foo,
thanks for the info.

Win7 Elevation
Sounds "simple"... so you'll basically have to "allow" a lot at the beginning of the install, when adding all the software and driver updates.

I'll continue to prefer to have everything places in "Program Files", though quite a few tools do not seem to actually let you follow through with this. Have been finding all sorts of data in "Documents and Settings" folders (under XP)... annoying.

Windows Security Essentials
In general I am very suspicious of anything that is mainstream, because such software often gets targeted first. But since several other sources (WSE Wiki) recommend it, it should be fine. I like the idea of seamless integration. Plus it's for free. KAV would have cost me a pretty penny.

KAV had the option to do a full scan, this included the listing of potential threats, i.e. software that has been known to have security issues, where a update is recommended. Does WSE have something like that as well?

Is it possible to download the complete package for an offline install? From WSE Site, I downloaded mssefullinstall-amd64fre-en-us-vista-win7.exe, this seems to be a "webinstaller". I'd prefer not having to wait for the package to download, once I am putting the PC together. I only have a slow 45KB/s connect.


Backup Tool in Win7?
Still feels a bit flaky. But these backups seem to let you select the C:\ drive, plus your custom data folders, so it seems to be kosher... I guess I'll only trust it after it actually saved my butt.


Started to read the P6T Deluxe V2 manual... seems to be relatively simple to add a boxed CPU cooler. Goes to show that user friendliness has actually come "some way" in the last about 8 years.


Floppy Disk
Does anyone still use a floppy disk? I only used it for things like BIOS updates, and some Windows Restore I never did (under XP). The P6T seems to let you use a USB Stick to update the BIOS, i.e. so I should be able to kick the floppy.

USB Stick
Any recommendation for a proven fast and good one. Should probably have 8GB, to let me in theory backup a DVD on it (i.e. my software archive).

[obsidian]

My 620 PSU has modular cables too. Maybe that one is slightly newer? I know mine comes with the 6-pin GPU connectors.

Do you really need the USB hub and cable? My mobo comes with 8 USB ports on the back, plus I think 4 to 8 internal case connectors and the optional rear case bracket.

What's a floppy?

USB memory is generally all the same. Just buy the cheapest at the capacity you want. There are a few that have faster transfers, but only if you expect to be copying a lot of large files back and forth. Expect to pay a premium for those, and generally not really worth it.

[AEon]

My 620 PSU has modular cables too. Maybe that one is slightly newer? I know mine comes with the 6-pin GPU connectors.

Think so too... slightly newer.

Do you really need the USB hub and cable? My mobo comes with 8 USB ports on the back, plus I think 4 to 8 internal case connectors and the optional rear case bracket.

I noted that... on my present PC with 6 USB ports I was getting into a few issues.

I need the hub, because I'll be using a 5m USB (A,B) cable from the PC (in the next room) to my desk with the monitor/keyboard/mouse on it. The hub will then let me connect all the USB stuff locally (on my desktop). Ironically I only need one single USB port on the PC-side. (Together with the DVI-D 5m cable, and a headphone cable 3.5mm, the PC should be "remotely" connected.)

Reason? The new PCs stink (can we say "nerve poisoning") like hell, I usually get really bad headaches from new PCs. 2nd reason when I close the door my work environment is actually silent ... at least that is my hope.

[Captain]

I bought an 8GB Corsair Flash Voyager for $11 from NCIX

[AEon]

So last night I did some more checking, most of the hardware already was the at an all-time low (cost-wise), I could save about 140 EU... unless something comes up this is pretty much what I will be ordering these next few days (hopefully).

Code: Select all

219,85 €MF  ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 X58 S1366 ATX
228,00 €MF  Intel Core i7 920 2.67GHz 4800MT/s S1366 8MB 130W BOX
289,00 €MF  1024MB Powercolor Radeon HD5850 PCS+ GDDR5 PCIe 2.1 (MB has 2.0!) 760 MHz
179,37 €MF  3x2048MB Mushkin Blackline DDR3-1600 CL7 Kit "Black Frostbyte"
194,65 €MF  80GB Intel X25-M G2 Postville 2.5" SATA Retail [80 GB, 250 / 70 MB/s]
 83,25 €MF  ATX Midi Cooler Master HAF Mini RC-922M-KKN1-GP - black
 22,84 €MF  LG GH22LS50 SATA Black Retail
 9,02 €MF  4GB Verbatim Store 'n' Go PinStripe USB-Key Hot Pink 20 MB/s (Read) 10 MB/s (Write)

 25,20 €MF  Cherry G81-3000LPCDE-2 black
 29,33 €MF  Logitech MX518 Optical Gaming Mouse USB Refresh [Optical, 1800dpi, Win7]
 28,50 €MF  NZXT Sentry 2 TouchScreen Fan Controller
 6,52 €MF  Silverstone SST-SDP08 Bay Converter 3,5 to 2x 2,5"

103,99 €KM  Corsair Netzteil 650 HX - 650 Watt
 42,99 €KM  Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ,500 GB,7200rpm,16 MB Cache
 42,99 €KM  Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ,500 GB,7200rpm,16 MB Cache

124,90 €AL  Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit (UK)

11.30 €Kab  Digitus® USB 2.0 Hub 7-Port
 1.80 €Kab  USB 2.0 Connector Type A to B B, Black, 5m
 1.20 €Kab  Klinkenverlängerung 3,5mm Klinke St. / Bu., Länge: 5m
10.50 €Kab  DVI DL Anschlusskabel 24+1 St. an 24+1 St., 5m, schwarz
-----
1649  € (was 1786€, -137€)

Alas after comparing what you guys bought and at what prices, it seems the ATI HD 5850 was way too cost-efficient and fast (with DX11) blowing the GTX 285 (same price level, about 300 EU) right out of the water. Result ATi seems to have raised the prices in the last 6 or so months. Same seems to have happened for DDR3 RAM. Sigh.

Wonder how long it will take, after putting everything together, until I am "happy" enough with the software install to actually start playing games... if it was a XP install, I'd say one day putting the hardware together, and another day to install XP and all the primary tools I need. But since all the hardware is new, some major reading up on what all the software can do will probably take weeks. Last time (8 years ago) I was running all sorts of benchmark tests, just to see "how" much better the system was.

Any other ideas / suggestions appreciated.

[Foo]

Just get it, build it, and start using it bro.

Everything else is just masturbation

[obsidian]

USB-Key Hot Pink

[AEon]

USB-Key Hot Pink

Note, this is actually a pretty fast USB stick... the other color would have been neon green... ieek.

[AEon]

So I've ordered the whole shebang... once everything is here, it will mean a *lot* of fiddling and reading.

[Captain]

Enjoy

Assembling a new rig is a lot of fun and a learning experience. Installing programs on the other hand...

[^misantropia^]

NP, just `apt-get install ubuntu-desktop`.

[AEon]

NP, just `apt-get install ubuntu-desktop`.

Wat eezz theezz? Never hear of it... some desktop theme/style?

Update: By accident I actually stumbled over "ubuntu"... was following a tip on how to "unlock" PDF files, in that OS it seems to be simple. Ironic

[+JuggerNaut+]

lol, do that on a separate partition.