Q3ct4

[AEon]

Hmm... somehow I have the feeling that several areas are getting out of hand. Pathing-wise. The biggest issue I see are all your out-lying paths, the two southern corridors connecting (they need items to make them useful) to the central GL area (upper floor), and all the new stuff next to the LG area. All the stairs here and the new TP corner... hmm... "Feels" like much here is redundant... problem is alas I have no better suggestions.

Maybe Pat has the time to suggest some pathing ideas, he is pretty good at that.

Weapon placement feels strange as well. I.e. the RL in the RG arena is too close to the PG, IMO.

About the skybox... it might be best to select one skybox face, Shift+A, to have all skybox brushes selected and delete them all. You have to go from room to room and build a "half-box" onto each one. But as mentioned on a per room basis. Another thing to be very careful about some of your ceilings are detail, thus they do *not* make the map airtight here.

Sorry, my comments today are not really very useful.

Idea: I really like the Italian town-like areas in the LG and MH arena, maybe stick with that theme and turn all your out-lying corridors into actual "narrow" streets of a small town, instead of the closed off ceiling rooms (that I don't really like).

[cityy]

[lvlshot]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5570/q3ct4x.jpg[/lvlshot]

I'm still working - just had a lot todo for school these days...

I asked Pat to take a look into the layout. Dunno if he has time for it tho.

[Pat Howard]

Hey man,

Of course I'll give it a look - but it'll be a couple days 'til I get home. I'm on some random laptop right now checking things for the first time in a little while .

I'm also building an Italy map right now. I started it for the NoGhost Comp. but I've been very slow progress wise lately and decided to bail from that and save it for my own time. Anyway, I can probably give you some good feedback if that's the direction you want to go in.

Later on,
-pat

[Pat Howard]

OK, the first thing you need to fix is the teleporters. TPs are, for me, a very specialized gameplay mechanic. I think you should only use them when you absolutely have to because they are disorienting and make your maps harder to learn. Here you have a bunch of totally unnecessary TPs that make for confusing, redundant gameplay. Below I'll try to show you what's wrong with these TPs while also pointing out general guidelines for when and when not to use TPs in the future.

Two-way TP by the LG
Here is a perfect example of a superfluous two-way TP. You could have just as easily cut a hole in the wall where that TP is and bridged the small gap over the two 25s with a path to the other side. This would also help to fuse that hallway area together making for more logical, connected gameplay, rather than the disconnected halls reconnected by TPs that you have now.
Tips:
-Never use a TP when a simple path will do.
-When you have disconnected hallways and dead-ends, avoid the impulse to "fix" or reconnect them with two-way TPs and re-do the layout altogether. You may be fixing the main problem, but new ones arise. Players get annoyed when they have run down a hallway to get to a TP - it's just not logical. "We have the teleportation technology, so why not put the teleporter at the beginning of the hallway and save us all this walkin'?!"

Two-way TP by the MH
Both these TPs can be removed. The ground floor TP to the RL is redundant when you look at the bouncer and the stair paths right next to it. In fact, one could argue that these paths have lost their value because the TP route is so much quicker to the RL.
On the other side, the TP by the RL can be removed because it's just as easy to simply jump down.
Tips:
-Never use a TP when a bouncer will do.
-Be careful when placing a TP to avoid overpowering adjacent paths completely. When you're balancing alternate paths, you have to factor in your TPs as routes too.
-Not all TPs need two be two-ways, especially ones that are very close to eachother because often it is just as easy to jump down a level as it is to use a high TP to low TP for the same purpose. Remember, we're trying to minimize TPs here by only using them when we really need them.

Two-way TP by the RG
The TP on the ground by the SG could create some problems because it is so much easier than going to the bouncer up to the RG that people would never use anything else coming from that hallway. However, there is currently a YA sitting on the ground floor of the RG room, so pretty much every time you go for the RG you're going to skip that TP and pick up the YA on the way to the bouncer. Depending on the final item placement, this TP will either be expendable or overpower the other paths, so I'd get rid of it.
The TP by the RG could just as easily be a hole in the wall which drops down to the hallway that holds the SG and RL ammo. That's something to think about.
Tips:
-Again, watch out for TPs that disturb path balance. In many situations you have multiple paths leading to the same destination which is good if they are balanced, but not if one is a TP and is thus much faster and more powerful than all the other paths.

One last idea regarding TPs: I noticed you tend to build rectangular floorplans. This is fine, but just know that your center area is going to see the most action and your "side rooms" and going to be less connected and weaker strategically. Right now it looks like basically you have three atriums (one center and two side atriums/bases), so the two players will probably each take a side room to stock up and eventually meet in the middle to fight. Perhaps you could add a risky two-way teleport that takes you from the back of one side room to the back of the other for surprise attacks and also to bring circular gameflow back to the dead-ends that result from a rectangular layout.

I'll give more feedback after I see what you think about the TPs; I think it's good to tackle one problem at a time, starting with the biggest/most obvious one. Let me know if you're unfamiliar with gameplay terms like "path balance" or "circular gameflow". A good place to start reading about these is Lunaran's site.

-pat

[AEon]

Pat,
I pretty much agree with all your points. In a few places I had suggested removing the TPs as well, only that your explanations are more compelling . The side passages have been an issue from the beginning, since they were too dead.

The "circular" two-way pathed TPs in the side corridors sound like a very good idea.

[cityy]

***UPDATE - Alpha 0.7***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct4_a07.zip (arround 730kb)

Thanks for your feedback Pat - I removed all the TPs for now and added an extra path to the LG room (connected upper YA area to the old TP path). I was already thinking about that a long time since AEon had already suggested it earlier. I'm still messing arround with the item layout..
These TPs "overcrossing" the map would be hard to implement, IMO.. I think it may be a bit - adding them would also make keeping controle (in duel) even easier than it already is.
I'm not sure about the two ways leading from the LG room to the central YA. The lower one seems a bit useless but sometimes it can be really surprising for your opponent if you travel there.

Xaero still uses an aimbot.

[AEon]

To explain a few ideas more easily here an overview of the map, marking all the sectors with letters, the arenas with numbers:

• 

Thoughts:

• IMO, the southern path is too linear (a,b,c,d,e,f), it is less of a problem with (g,h,2,i), I'd suggest expanding c) downward, turning this room into another open sky courtyard (townyard, like 1,2,3), and then move a,b up, probably removing j) completely. Somehow try to get a,b off axis from c,d.
  Maybe close the b,c doorway, and cut a door in the southern walls of b) and c) connecting them.
• I still find i,h somehow useless. Not the path per se, but the items here.
• i) as an indoor room is fine, but I'd turn h) into a townyard as well, and also a).
• a) to k) is a bit long an AP might help here.
• Maybe Pat can use the layout to think of path improvements, the issues I see are a,b,j then f), and also h).

Small issues:

• The arc in k) has patch alignment issues.
• The water floor in 3), IMO, should be made wider, to actually force a splash sound when you grab the LG, presently you can simply "seal" the LG. Maybe use patches in the stream's waterbed to make the water flow more fluidly around the corners.
• In 3), it might be nifty to add a small ledge (see red x) to make it easier to jump right to the planks with the 5x5A (pink). It may be possible to jump into the door ledge (green) then the planks, presently. I don't seem to have that skill though.
• Removing one of the JPs in 3) was an interesting move to make f) much more meaningful if you want to get to e).
• Maybe actually merge a,b,j into one townyard.
• Nice broken floor in 3), but please playerclip the complete floor area.
• You might like to start using the "nice" AEcell JPs shader/textures .
• When coming from c,b it could be good to place something important at j), to motivate folks to actually take the lower path to 1), instead of staying on the upper path a,k,1 to get the YA.
• I am not really sure the RLs in 2,3 are placed that well, to close together IMO. Maybe put the RLs in a) and 3), and the GL in 2).

I like 2), and 3) is getting there with the RG placed a bit higher from h). Though RL next to RG... hmmm. But first we should try to finalize the pathing, the item/weapon placement can then be done.

[cityy]

Related to your screenshot AEon:

[lvlshot]http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9043/q3ct408a.jpg[/lvlshot]

I reworked a),b) and j) and "merged" them to one path. I also got rid of the second RL - the "surviving" RL is where the GL was. I moved the railgun-YA to the old rocket launcher spawn and put the PG to the old YA place.

[lvlshot]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9958/q3ct408b.jpg[/lvlshot]

Opened up this area and also h) - I liked this idea

Well, you will see all the changes with the next update.

What do folks think about the LG room? I'm looking for an alternative path out there if you are on the lower level - tho I didn't have a convincing idea yet..

[Pat Howard]

Lookin' great. It's already pretty fun, especially the main room. Still, I have a couple large ideas for this one before I get into the little stuff.

I agree with AEon about the peripheral paths. They do feel very "dead". The logic in me wonders why I have to travel to the perimeter of the map simply to get to the next room over. To make matters worse, you've had to "bend" some of them a bit to compensate for hinting, making them even less direct. I believe these problems are originating from the basic "straight line-up" formation of your rooms.

Ehem, *John Madden Voice*



I know this is over-simplified, but just notice the obvious advantages of taking the direct routes from atrium to atrium, rather than looping around. The only reason I think you'd want to loop around the perimeter is for items or a sneakier way to enter the main atrium.

This is going to be a very tough problem to avoid in the map's current state. I think you have to actually change your room formation a little bit. Here's one possibility.



The main atrium has simply been shifted up a little bit. Any hallways you decide to make will now lie within the basic "footprint" of the map, making them much more logical.

---

The second thing I wanted to bring to your attention is the severe imbalance between the two side atriums - let's call them "bases", because each player will likely claim territory in one of them to stock up before a fight in the center.

The biggest problem is that one base holds the RG in the far back corner, making it extremely easy to guard. You may not have experienced this first hand yet because bots don't take advantage of map control, but in a map like this with human players that is a big deal. A little imbalance is good, but not this much. I have a few ideas for fixes...

1.) Relocate the RG to the center. Create imbalance only with armor/ammo. For instance, you could put an RA in the left base and a YA on the right. You could also give each base an RL, but one has more ammo than the other. You could even try a little health imbalance, perhaps by giving the down player a little extra.

2.) The other option is to keep the RG well that you have there and simply put a TP behind it which links the two bases. Put the other end of the TP on the ground floor of the right base, or anywhere that is less exploitable to an attack. The left base would have a huge item advantage over the right, but the right base could surprise the left from behind, perhaps even stealing an item or two.

3.) Or maybe you could think of something entirely different.

---

I suggest taking some time before this next alpha. Really give the changes you decide to make a good run-through and re-read the advice AEon and I have given before uploading. Ask yourself questions about the balance, gameflow, hinting, etc - it's the only way to build a better gameplay understanding/intuition. Once that's done, we can probably move on to the smaller stuff and then you can finally get to makin' this thing! Enjoy,

-pat

[AEon]

Pat,
I like reading your comments... even though I build maps in a completely different way, it is interesting to have things thought out. So the basic idea would the to define your "bases" (with different height levels), to then rethink how they should be connected. Sounds good.

Something to consider (Pat) - though I am not really a tourney player - is that those outer paths can be very useful if they actually contain items vital to control the map, i.e. the RA and the MH and powerful weapons RL/RG. If you keep those out of the main arena, the player dominating that area, will get into trouble, because the other player can "fill up" on very powerful items - after respawn - sticking to the outside paths, i.e. the other player has a chance at a comeback.


Just noted, the first of Pat's images could be turned into a figure-8 layout if you remove the direct connections between the 3 arenas. Something of sorts that fKd did in temp01.

IIRC, the good tourney maps had a not too simple layout that *forced* the dominating player the cover a lot of ground in the map to keep "on top" of items like the MH, RA or a power-up (and even weapons?), trying to time their respawn times.

cityy,
something you might like to re-think: "Does the map really *need* to be tourney map?". I am guessing, but you may be wanting to create a tourney map because they tend to be smaller and can be built more quickly. But as the discussion should be showing, tourney maps are actually more the "high road of mapping", because they are so tactical in nature. A FFA map is a lot more forgiving in that respect, and might be a better focus for your "first" map.

Please note these are just ideas...

[cityy]

@ Pat:
This would cause a complete layout change and take a lot of time.

I'm not sure if I still want to do changes of this "size" in the map. Reading your post shows that the map could be a lot better than it actually is with some pathing changes but as said - this would take ages to complete since I don't have that much time. I think I will keep your advices in mind for a next map. Or du you think it would be worth it changing the map completely?

These (really nice btw) layout shems make sense to me - also what you've said about balance with weapons/ammo/health/armor.
I like the 1. Idea you suggested about the item placement. I was wondering where to put the RG.. Maybe Remove the YA in the middle room and put the RG there - maybe even put it there where the mega health is atm... but where to put the MH then... Maybe you have suggestions? It's hard to do because RG should be hard to get.. if I would put it in the central room the MH

---

I was thinking about creating a new scratch to get a better overview about the whole thing. I will see when I will be able to come up with a new release.

@ AEon:

About sideways and items - I don't think putting important items in small sideways is a good idea in most cases. Why would a player want to controle the main areas if he can get along with running the sideways to stack up!? Imagine a YA or even a RA in h). Armors are items to fight for and I don't think a fight should take place in such a tight room/hallway.

I thought of moving the armor shards to h). 5 shards five your 25 armor - which can be very important. That's why I don't think the lower corridor to the LG room is the right place for them..

Well, I wouldn't call this a dedicated tourney map - it shall be playable in ffa/tdm and tourney which works pretty OK atm. I think not only tourney maps are tactical. You need armor/health/ammo in ffa and especially in tdm too - so you need to time the items there as well to get a constant advantage. I'm not creating these kind of maps because they are done quicker - I just enjoy smaller maps. They are more fast paced IMO and when me and my buddies play a lan we usually don't have enough players to fill a such a big map as e.g. AEdm7 is.

You don't need to justify for your suggestions AEon I really appreciate your feedback - it already helped me and the map a lot.

[Pat Howard]

@ Pat:
This would cause a complete layout change and take a lot of time.

I'm not sure if I still want to do changes of this "size" in the map.

Well, of course it's all up to you. The map plays pretty well as is, so I guess it all depends on your gameplay standards. What's more important to you right now, speed or quality of work? Personally I don't think it would require starting from scratch. After all, you're still in alpha, and 90% of the editing would be done to the hallways which currently have no detail. All the main room needs is a little "nudge" and the side bases can stay where they are.

But if you choose not to go with the changes, don't worry. A.) This map has already and will continue to teach you plenty, and B.) I'm sure my suggestion is not the only way to give those hallways more purpose. Maybe you could think of something that would involve even less editing.

Side note: Move the RG near the middle somewhere, maybe in one of the hallways. I like where the MH is because it creates cool trap/ambush possibilities when someone goes for it. Speaking of that area, I just noticed in one of those screenshots that you removed the arches above the MH. How come? I thought they made for great cover.

[cityy]

Of cause quality is more important. When I was working on q3ct3 I experienced that moving away too far from the orginal/planed layout make things become weird. Though as said some changes may improve the map flow.. The thing actually is planning these pathing changes and implementing them into the map with the needed optimizing. Only thinking of it makes me feel like "oh my god I don't want to do all this work...". I'm a bit lazy these days.. need to get rid of this.

Simplified layout sheme here - according to your pictures with some items already placed:

[lvlshot]http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3747/layoutwc.jpg[/lvlshot]

Maybe I'll even put the RG in some kind of hole with a tele porter exit. (Any thoughts about that?)

About the arches: I always wondered what todo with this area - opening it up or keeping it closed. Adding a wall, arches or whatever... First it was opened - then I closed it just because to give a player some things to hide behind.. Afetr that I added the arches with which I wasn't really happy. I'm still looking fot something todo here - maybe some kind of pillar.. I don't know yet. I would really appreciate some feedback here.

[cityy]

Seems like it's impossible to implement these changes with the current layout - I would have to drop some cool angles in the map.. I started to work on it but IMO there is not much of an improvement. Maybe this is caused by the layout - I don't know.

I wont continue this but I will look into the item layout.

[Hipshot]

Use the ideas for your next level if you can't use them here... it's as simple =)

[Pat Howard]

Yeah it's not the biggest problem really. I'll give you some item feedback later today or tomorrow. It's good that you at least tried something like this.

[cityy]

Some screenshots:

[lvlshot]http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9208/shot0005ue.jpg[/lvlshot]

3 TPs now - MH-room TP leads to LG room TP, LG-room TP leads to PG-room TP, PG-room TP leads back to MH-room TP.

[lvlshot]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6715/shot0001cz.jpg[/lvlshot]

New place for the RG.

Later more.

[Pat Howard]

Christ, sorry, totally forgot to give you that feedback I promised. Are you gonna release at least one more alpha? If so I'll wait til' then.

[AEon]

Careful with those connecting TPs, they let player and even worse bots skip all over the map. If they are one way (i.e. you don't exit at another TP), this can be avoided.

[cityy]

Yes Pat, I think I'm gonna release at least two more alpha versions.

I see you are right AEon - seems like bots use the TPs very often. I think I'm gonna make it a two way TP from one side of the map to the other.

Currently having a hard time making the bots go for the railgun.. :/

[AEon]

If you want a bot with a strong RG preference then use Anarki, for a Quad preference Doom. Maybe that helps.

Another "trick": You could create a info_player_deathmatch near the RG, then use the key/value pair on them: nohumans 1. When the bots respawn here, they will probably grab the RG, but players will not.

[cityy]

***UPDATE***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct4_a08.zip

Changelog:

- mainly item layout changes
- new RG area
- added two way TP connecting the RL rooms

I hope the pk3 is ok - I'm a bit tired today..

====

Oh cool - thanks for the advice! I didn't know every bot "likes" a specific item. Gonna try Anarki soon.

[lvlshot]http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8114/shot0001os.jpg[/lvlshot]

Simplyfied the RG area - the old one was a bit dead. Also thought of a spawn point there but I didn't know about bot only spawns. Gonna think about that.

[AEon]

Short notes:

• I'd recommend just about any shader in AEcell *but* the one you are presently using: aecell_light1_orange. This light shader is not working properly because the surface is not receiving a lightmap. When working on AEmars I noted this. I'd recommend you rather actually use the proper JP shader: textures/aecell_sfx/aecell_jp. It also casts a light, plus is "animated".
• Also, give the JP brush to the RG something like a 30° angle, to make it clear the player will not only be cast up, but also backwards into the RG.
• As a temporary "help" for the player to identify the doorways that are actually TPs, maybe place a "green" light above them. You added a red light for at least one doorway somewhere else... in that style.

Somehow I have the feeling the feedback we are giving you is beating the "nifty" and "original" ideas the map had to death. I'll play the map a few times, before I try to give some hopefully useful feedback. But from the quick test the TPs "feel" a bit strange, but that may be a wrong first impression.

[Pat Howard]

Somehow I have the feeling the feedback we are giving you is beating the "nifty" and "original" ideas the map had to death.

Yes, taking large suggestions from beta testers is tricky business. Ignore them and you may end up with serious gameplay problems; take them and you may end up making someone else's map.

The truth is you can't always follow your testers' word for word. Sometimes you need to come up with your own variations of their fixes which conform to your vision. The key to this is being able to identify the core gameplay flaw that inspired your tester's suggestion in the first place.This is tough, because sometimes a tester will supply you with the solution, but not the problem. It comes with experience, but there are definitely ways quickly to get better at it.

My best advice is this: Don't just accept every suggestion as the best one. Try to translate what people are telling you, and get to the bottom of their problems, not their solutions. Only once you understand the core problem can you begin to evaluate the best possible solution for your map. I think this is best shown by example.

Tester 1: "These stairs are too long. I never use them. I'd rather just take the nearby teleporter instead."

Tester 2: "The teleporter next to the stairs is too strong. It's quicker than the stairs in every way."

Tester 1 and Tester 2 both have the same problem, and yet are offering two different solutions.

Reality: You need to balance the two paths. You could shorten one, lengthen the other, remove one of them, or remove both and make something altogether better. It's up to you; there are infinite possibilities - that's the beauty of it.

-pat

[AEon]

I may have been wrong with my last comment. I played the map against bots twice, and must say it is fun, and the TPs even though they may seem strange, work pretty well. So it might be good to keep them as they are for a while.

Some general thoughts (fine-tuning):

• Height variation: You have added some quite steep height variations in the map, to get some vertical fighting going. IMO, this works very well in the main MH arena, and also in the PG/YA/TA arena 3. Where it is fun to pick off the bots with the RG (standing up at the RG or the LG; and the YA respectively).
  
  But, IMO, the JP is a bit to high for gameflow in the RL,TP,YA arena 1 (former pool RG). Such extreme height variations can be good, e.g. in the case of the RG, but...
  
  The corridors could be made more interesting adding some height variation here as well. Presently, the out-lying corridors on the "upper" level are all at the same height. 4-5 steps up and down again might make them more interesting.
  
  For a good example of this see Sock's present Focal Point, you slowly gain height via several levels of stairs until you reach the Quad, and other height variation all over the place (AEdm7 does that too, less subtle maybe).
• Height Suggestions: Starting in the arena 1 (were the RG pool used to be), lift up the floor to make the JP from floor to YA less high (20% maybe, 64u). With the JP in your back leaving the arena for the corner, add some more steps 4-5, until you round the corner to reach the next JP (near the large stairs set).
  
  From the RG JP, towards the PG, make the player go up 5-6 steps, grab the PG - the window would also be raised - then moving onward to the YA, have some steps drop down to the YA platform again.
  
  Continuing on that path past the JP still on the upper level, enter the roofed over corridor, 5-6 steps up, keep that level until you reach the door to the main arena (2). The raised platform, continue that into the upper level of the arena. You can den drop a few steps to the LG, and on the other side to the wooden planks.
  
  Etc... the corridor from the LG to arena 1, also add some height variation there.
  
  Now, from arena 2 (main arena), to to arena 3 (with the "stream"), in the corridor under the planks, also add some steps... e.g. raising arena 3 about 3-4 steps.
  
  You get the idea... try to avoid too many areas that are on the same flat height level. You don't need extreme height differences, just several steps up (6-8 is a good value, around 64u up or down).
• Something else to consider, to make the map maybe a bit more difficult to understand, but more interesting to learn are paths over paths (e.g. "underground corridors"). Presently you could squash all height levels onto *one* level (except for the plank bridge), making the map flat. You might like to think of one or two paths that lead under another path. E.g. the JP between arena 2 (main) and arena 1 (former RG pool), could actually tunnel through the wall, to lead directly to the RL (again add a few steps to reach the upped RL floor).
• I am still hoping you will make turn the PG area into an outdoor area with nifty roofs.

Hope these suggestions are practical enough to give you an idea how to add some more variation and spiff. It should be fairly easy to add more height variation to the map, and it should be well worth the bit of extra work, IMO.