Demo recording in Quake 4

[Foo]

Tis true that Epic rule.

I'm still gonna give Q4 a fair shot

[o'dium]

I know i'll buy it. I cant see an id game on the shelf and NOT buy it.

But maybe thats whats wrong with id software... People buy the games because of the logo, not for the game...? I mean how many eople bought Doom 3 knowing how crap it was and how bad it would run, JUST because of the name?

Maybe id think they are doing something RIGHT? *thinks back to the old "you dont want coop" speach*

[Eraser]

Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.

To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.

[Eraser]

just one question for you o'dium.
If Quake IV would have Windows Mediaplayer like playback controls, the demos would have 1 mb for 10 minutes and they would be MVD's, allowing you to freely roam through the map in spectator mode as the battle goes on, and even (like in uFreeze) click on people's names in the scoreboard to add picture-in-picture windows of their view?

Wouldn't you agree with me that all that stuff would completely blow an avidemo out of the water in terms of functionality and possiblities?

I bet you'd agree with me. Now stating that currently there is no such implementation out of the box still leads me to the fact that simply because such a thing doesn't exist doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the concept.

[o'dium]

Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.

To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.

Funny, it looks like a discussion from where I'm sitting. Get out of Carmacks ass for once and just post instead of having to disagree with anything negative anybody says about id.

id are living in the 90's. They make games for the 90's on this years tech. This is about demo recording, because the demo functions in Quake 1, 2, 3 Doom 3 and now Quake 4 are all the same. In fact at one point, they took a step BACKWARD. This is on topic.

[o'dium]

just one question for you o'dium.
If Quake IV would have Windows Mediaplayer like playback controls, the demos would have 1 mb for 10 minutes and they would be MVD's, allowing you to freely roam through the map in spectator mode as the battle goes on, and even (like in uFreeze) click on people's names in the scoreboard to add picture-in-picture windows of their view?

Wouldn't all that stuff completely blow an avidemo out of the water in terms of functionality and possiblities?

Obviously, it would be a lot better. But will id software add it? Not a chance in hell. They haven't got a clue what the community wants. Thats why they just go with what "they" want and think all the time, and dont understand why people get pissed when they make the same mistake AGAIN.

I've already said that if the demos had that kind of support they would be better. I suggest you start reading between the lines Eraser and not just jumping in because of your fanboy-like attitude.

Like if i say "nintendo sucks, the revolution pad is shit" you will now post a 19 page thread about how i'm wrong, and how your right, and quote me 74 times saying the same thing. Thats what you do. Let it go, its called an opinion. id sucks, IN MY OPINION, because they are living in the 90's are no longer king. Live with it.

[Eraser]

Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.

To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.

Funny, it looks like a discussion from where I'm sitting. Get out of Carmacks ass for once and just post instad of having to disagree with anything negative anybody says about id.

id are living in the 90's. They make games for the 90's on this years tech. This is about demo recording, because the demo functions in Quake 1, 2, 3 Doom 3 and now Quake 4 are all the same. In fact at one point, they took a step BACKWARD. This is on topic.

You stick to this id Software bashing thing eh?
That's not the discussion I wish to partake in. I don't care much for defending id Software either. Actually, you telling me to get out of Carmack's ass is completely ridiculous and unfound. I am not defending id Software in any way, I am only defending the concept of in-game demos versus pre-recorded "static" videos.

It would be kind of sad if you can't see that.

[o'dium]

To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.

Funny, it looks like a discussion from where I'm sitting. Get out of Carmacks ass for once and just post instad of having to disagree with anything negative anybody says about id.

id are living in the 90's. They make games for the 90's on this years tech. This is about demo recording, because the demo functions in Quake 1, 2, 3 Doom 3 and now Quake 4 are all the same. In fact at one point, they took a step BACKWARD. This is on topic.

You stick to this id Software bashing thing eh?
That's not the discussion I wish to partake in. I don't care much for defending id Software either. Actually, you telling me to get out of Carmack's ass is completely ridiculous and unfound. I am not defending id Software in any way, I am only defending the concept of in-game demos versus pre-recorded "static" videos.

It would be kind of sad if you can't see that.

And even though I AGREED WITH YOU on that, you still go on ignoring the fact that I DID AGREE WITH YOU.

If you dont want to take part in the bashing, fine, dont. Leave me and whoever else wants to share their rational opinion to battle it out or discuss it. Just ignore it yeah, its not like somebody is FORCING YOU to post.

[Foo]

odium has a point about demo recording, and to extrapolate it into a general observation about id software and epic games seems entirely reasonable

[Eraser]

you seem rather agitated

[o'dium]

you seem rather agitated

Hey, you know when somebody posts a topic called "call of duty 7 pics" and the last post is by "odium", what do you expect? You expect to see me bashing the graphics or something in the game yeah?

Well, when somebody posts "nintendo sucks", and the last post is by "eraser", do you know what people expect? A 98 page long reply by you, quoting everybody in the entire thread, and making YOUR opinion the correct one.

So, really mate, i'm not pissed, or moody or anything. In fact i'm leveling up in FFVII because i cant beat this fucking boss with no meterial (fucking yuffie), while watching TV. I couldn't be any more "not bothered" right now.

[Eraser]

odium has a point about demo recording, and to extrapolate it into a general observation about id software and epic games seems entirely reasonable

Well I do agree with him that "we" have only scratched the surface of what's possible with demo recordings. However, this debate has erupted in a rather uncontrollable fashion (mostly due to o'dium increasing the scope of the discussion far beyond it's original borders). My original claim was that o'dium was wrong in his statements about in-game demos being obsolete by avidemos. I disagreed on that point. Nothing more.

I didn't say that id Software or Epic's implementation of in-game demos was great or bad. I'm just saying that if it's implemented right (and gave uFreeze as example), in-game demos are a rather powerful tool, which allows us to do things that aren't even remotely possible with pre-recorded videos.


If I have to comment on the expanded scope of the issue, then I have to agree with o'dium that if the industry continues to ignore the oppertunities behind in-game demos pre-recorded videos might be an easier solution at some time. I do feel however, that one factor still keeps the in-game demos in favor is filesize. With the exception of Doom3, in-game demos are many times smaller. The fact that AVI files offer viewability under any situation with good playback controls doesn't weigh up to the filesize problem IMO. Even on my fast connection, I wouldn't download a 150mb demo from a fatal1ty match. The 3mb it takes for the in-game demo is no problem though.

[Eraser]

you seem rather agitated

Hey, you know when somebody posts a topic called "call of duty 7 pics" and the last post is by "odium", what do you expect? You expect to see me bashing the graphics or something in the game yeah?

Well, when somebody posts "nintendo sucks", and the last post is by "eraser", do you know what people expect? A 98 page long reply by you, quoting everybody in the entire thread, and making YOUR opinion the correct one.

So, really mate, i'm not pissed, or moody or anything. In fact i'm leveling up in FFVII because i cant beat this fucking boss with no meterial (fucking yuffie), while watching TV. I couldn't be any more "not bothered" right now.

I don't feel I ever force my opinion down on people. I do, however, think that I'm often slightly enthousiastic (frantic if you will) in taking down other people's arguments. When I do not agree with those arguments, I supply a counter argument, telling them that their argument is flawed for reasons X and Y. That isn't forcing down my opinion, that is exactly what a discussion is about.

If I quote 15 people in one thread, then I feel that there have been 15 arguments which are either incorrect, hypocritical or unacceptable in some other way, but I always supply a reason for why I think they're wrong with that argument. That's a debate. A discussion. It's not forcing down. I offer the opposition the same oppertunity. Strike down my arguments and I'll admit I'm wrong. I have explicitly done so a relatively large number of times here on Quake3World.

The reason why I'm drawn as a Nintendo fanboy who'll blindly follow them everywhere is because I am often a minority that enjoys certain Nintendo games. The arguments against those games are often no more than trolls, flames, "fashionable" or really ignorant statements. Yes, I take my time to combat those arguments. I simply hope to shed a different light on things. You will also notice that I take this whole "eraser is a nintendo fanboy" thing rather lightly. I make jokes about it myself.

Also, to wrap things up, I don't feel the initial "meta-discussion" was about me forcing down an opinion but rather me trying to keep the discussion within the scope of the original argument, which you didn't like (and you resorted to calling me a fanboy, even though I didn't even comment on id Software's attitude or technical and functional achievments)

[MKJ]

So, really mate, i'm not pissed, or moody or anything. In fact i'm leveling up in FFVII because i cant beat this fucking boss with no meterial (fucking yuffie), while watching TV. I couldn't be any more "not bothered" right now.

get some skills then homo :icon32:
you dont need to be lvl 58 to beat this guy without any materia

[o'dium]

So, really mate, i'm not pissed, or moody or anything. In fact i'm leveling up in FFVII because i cant beat this fucking boss with no meterial (fucking yuffie), while watching TV. I couldn't be any more "not bothered" right now.

get some skills then homo :icon32:
you dont need to be lvl 58 to beat this guy without any materia

Duh I know. Its just posing a problem because i tried twice so far :P

[hemostick]

We don't see über demo system improvements because there are more important things on a todo list when you make a game. Some of these improvements only matter to a few hundred people, that makes it very low on the list.
The rest are done in a couple of binds or worked in in some popular mods that are actually played by the vast majority of the few people who would be interested.

Btw, rewinding is pretty much out of question. Ask some people who've made their own demo formats.

[o'dium]

Btw, rewinding is pretty much out of question. Ask some people who've made their own demo formats.

What, like, UT...? Which has it...?

[hemostick]

Apparently, not in t3h quakes, engine stuff.

[o'dium]

Apparently, not in t3h quakes, engine stuff.

Then surely that means id have lost the skill to think ahead...? At least in regards to Doom 3. Sure, it wasn't designed as a MP game, but come on neither were Quake 1/2 (Q2 never even shipped with MP maps), ut both were huge online. So it could of been a secret hit for all they knew.

[Foo]

UT rewind support is quite broken TBH. I don't know of any proper implementations of rewind, I think it's mostly down to the nature of the networking code being the games.

[hemostick]

Well, Epic is practically coming back from the dead with their demo support in unreal games.
I think U1 didn't have any. Don't know how UT99's evolved over time. When demos were introduced to 2k3 (after its release), they were nasty, like almost 1MB/minute and didn't play at normal speed, nor at a consistant one. It got better over time and in 2k4 but they still can't make demo playback silky smooth, and you don't see the gun viewmodel if the recorder had it off.

Plus you still need to have all the exact versions of all the server packages to play the demo back. There are some demo tools that grab these for you nowadays with 2k4 though, but you didn't have that luxury in ut99.
So, people put up pages and pages of deprecated packages, which often wouldn't prevent some from just disappearing and therefore preventing playback of certain demos.

The gui for speeds and avidemo + backward are the only things going in favour of their demo system.

[^misantropia^]

Btw, rewinding is pretty much out of question. Ask some people who've made their own demo formats.

It's possible but quite hard to implement. Essentially, a demo is an incremental dump of server snapshots. The client interpolates between snapshots while continuously discarding the old game state, making it impossible to backtrack.

However...

You're watching a demo. After 40 seconds you want to rewind by 10 seconds. Now the client needs to restart the demo in order to obtain the original game state, and interpolate as fast as it can from 0 to 30 seconds (obviously without rendering anything) before continuing regular playback.

This can be optimized in various ways. For example, buffer the game state once every minute so that, when you decide to rewind 10 minutes into a demo, the client only needs to interpolate at most 1,200 snapshots instead of 12,000.

I'm thinking about adding a rewind feature to the Q3A engine.

[Foo]

I'm pretty sure that once every x updates, the server flashes out a full absolute position of all entities, to keep everyone synchronised?

EDIT: A bit like a Key Frame for video formats.

[^misantropia^]

No, never. It only sends the status of entities within the PVS (which differs from client to client).

[Fjoggs]

Is there a avidemo command implemented? To dump .tga pictures to a folder for movie-creation.